The Girth Hitch Master Point

Cahdoo5e Quoose1twrote:

Seems crazy to use the common girth hitched master point given the results in this video. On one pull, the girth hitch slips as 1.2KN. The proposed girth hitched X seems interesting.

Yes, I often make my anchors by only clipping one leg, not cinching down the hitch, then slowwwwly putting all my my weight on the anchor! Why do you ask?

Alexander Blumwrote:

Yes, I often make my anchors by only clipping one leg, not cinching down the hitch, then slowwwwly putting all my my weight on the anchor! Why do you ask?

While I'm not yet sold, your sarcastic comment is missing the point on "only clipping one leg". I do agree that those hitches aren't cinched down, which is standard procedure and would likely severely alter the test results.

It's not missing the point at all. Testing an un-cinched girth hitch, loaded on one leg, with a long slow ramp pull doesn't make one bit of sense. It's so far divorced from reality that it's ridiculous. Cinching properly (and pulling in a more realistic fashion) would drastically alter the test results.

Alexander Blumwrote:

It's not missing the point at all. Testing an un-cinched girth hitch, loaded on one leg, with a long slow ramp pull doesn't make one bit of sense. It's so far divorced from reality that it's ridiculous. Cinching properly (and pulling in a more realistic fashion) would drastically alter the test results.

Good thing there's drop testing in that video, too, then. It's worth watching. 

Before I spend 24 minutes watching that what are they testing for? If the sling on one side of the girth hitch is cut and you take a high FF fall?

Derek DeBruinwrote:

Good thing there's drop testing in that video, too, then. It's worth watching. 

Thanks, I went and watched that bit. I’m unconvinced that the girth hitch that was drop tested was properly cinched down before being tested. 

Alexander Blumwrote:

It's not missing the point at all. Testing an un-cinched girth hitch, loaded on one leg, with a long slow ramp pull doesn't make one bit of sense. It's so far divorced from reality that it's ridiculous. Cinching properly (and pulling in a more realistic fashion) would drastically alter the test results.

While not exactly what you are asking for, you can see at 15:00 min in this previously posted video that they pre-load the girth hitch with 4KN of force before they cut the sling. I would say that cinches the girth hitch pretty well. You can read the dynamometer as they pull, and the girth hitch slips at relatively low forces. Yes, this is a slow pull, but I think it's quite reasonable to be alarmed at these results.

I just don't understand why everyone is so scared of 2 extremely unlikely events happening simultaneously. How often are you going to encounter the perfect rockfall that manages to cut just one of the legs of your anchor, doesn't kill you, and also causes your seconding climber to somehow load your anchor with a consistent multiple kN force and also have you so incapacitated that you can't make an adjustment during the process of it pulling out.

It's way more likely that one of your pieces blows. And in that case the girth hitch is still redundant because the carabiner of the piece that blew will not slip through the hitch.

FWIW I generally use the clove because it's quicker to tie and I like how it orients the master point carabiner. 

Alexander Blumwrote:

Thanks, I went and watched that bit. I’m unconvinced that the girth hitch that was drop tested was properly cinched down before being tested. 

Cool. At least we're all on the same page now with the results and can draw conclusions accordingly.

It’s great that people keep analyzing and discussing the best ways to do things. 

A couple notes on that video.

• He says he invented the girth x in the video from two months ago but I recommended it on page one of this thread a year ago and had been using it for a while before that. I read about it in the comments for a previous video.
• In my post on page one I also recommend using a 12mm sling instead of 8mm. Many of them are a mix between nylon and dyneema and seem less likely to slip. This seems like the most important thing to reduce slippage. I’d like to see those tested too.
• Those numbers seem different than what how not to slackline got and the latter seems like a more reliable source. 

And as mentioned above it’s extremely unlikely to have one sling leg get cut and experience a high FF fall. 

drew Awrote:

2 extremely unlikely events happening simultaneously

But rock/ice fall and leader fall are not entirely uncorrelated.

Serge Swrote:

But rock/ice fall and leader fall are not entirely uncorrelated.

This. Leader dislodges rock/ice, falls as a result, falling object strikes anchor. This event itself is pretty unlikely, but it's not inconceivable. More important is being informed about the system being used. If the tool has a known failure mode, this can be considered and folks are able to make choices appropriate for their risk tolerance. Failure modes might include the masterpoint slipping off the end of the sling if the anchor leg is cut, slipping if a carabiner is unclipped from the sling, or slipping if the carabiner uncilps from the protection (where a small wiregate might slip through a large masterpoint locker).

All these new ways of doing things are interesting and worth knowing but I'm still the most comfortable just tying a masterpoint in a beefy 16mm nylon sling.

Garry Reisswrote:

All these new ways of doing things are interesting and worth knowing but I'm still the most comfortable just tying a masterpoint in a beefy 16mm nylon sling.

Simple, robust, redundant, doesn't extend, equalized enough for 2 bolts, and negligible overall weight difference. Holds knots well and unties easily. Edelrid tech slings work well for this too. 

Kyle M wrote:

Traveling with no climbing gear so here is my best to get the idea across lmao. 

https://youtu.be/pNjOLh7DTps

I think you just invented the Prusik hitch.

Cordelettes were huge in the early 2000s but then went out of favor around 2010 with a lot of old timers saying they never got on that boat. I always thought they were simple, redundant, non extending, and may do a little load sharing. In short a great choice. I still use them or a sling version in TR anchors all the time. You can put a biner through part of the masterpoint knot to make it easier to untie if it’s going to have falls on it. They seem simpler and more foolproof than the quad which seems to have taken over as the beginner / TR anchor. 

Gloweringwrote:

Cordelettes were huge in the early 2000s but then went out of favor around 2010 with a lot of old timers saying they never got on that boat. I always thought they were simple, redundant, non extending, and may do a little load sharing. In short a great choice. I still use them or a sling version in TR anchors all the time. You can put a biner through part of the masterpoint knot to make it easier to untie if it’s going to have falls on it. They seem simpler and more foolproof than the quad which seems to have taken over as the beginner / TR anchor. 

quoted for posterity...thank you

The updating in regard to incorporating a "magic X" is a valuable addition to the very serviceable girth hitch as described. As to "extremely unlikely" events causing failure of a strand, the simple expedient of the half twist in one of the incoming loops adding a factor of 10 to the overall security seems absurd, to ignore. And along the way, the proliferation of YouTube videos demonstrating methods that are not at all recommended, like clove hitches in single strands of slings, which have failed in FF! drops, shows how much disinformation is being dispensed by self-annointed "experts" whose credentials largely come from their numbers of Follower/Subscribers. The democratization of information has translated into unedited, unfiltered, uncorroborated streams of confusing and contradictory advise - aggravating when it's political rants or conspiracy theories, but potentially deadly when it misleads newbies.
Overly complicated systems using yards of cordelette to create "self-equalizing, sliding X distribution and multi-directional" quad XY and Z macrame were shown to not accomplish the intended goals, by and large, and the Girth Hitch Master Point (as long as no knots are tied elsewhere) is stronger, cleaner, simpler, and more easily equalized, even in Dyneema static sling. Learning how and why modern materials must be incorporated differently from nylon is critical to maximizing safety, and ignorance can be deadly. Obstinance may be a close second.

This whole debate seems manufactured by the instagram guide community to fill content. Create an unnecessary solution to a solved problem, then navel gaze about the pros and cons. Boom, 3 months free content.

Here’s the entire guide community’s content, summarized: 

1) navel gazing about locker draws, the quad, the girth hitch master point, rap ring master points, belaying the leader direct off the anchor, etc

2) never ending reinventions of the “best” way to anchor build on the same five gunks/eldo trade routes.

Wonder how much energy is being absorbed or force being spread out over time with those slipping girth hitches?

Perhaps enough to preserve the remaining anchor point provided the knot stops slipping prior to failure?