Bolt hanger removal on Bali Dome in the South Platte

Tyson Ferrymanwrote:

A line of bolts really bothers people? Ha!  

This really gets me. I dont get where this myth comes from of a hiker whose whole experience was ruined by spotting a bolt. How many times have we as climbers struggled to find a bolt line that we're actually looking for? 

I appreciate the efforts you made to create a safe beginner route. I have been on too many scary run out routes in the South Platte to count (just two bolts on a 35meter pitch on Big Rock Candy Mountain, ridiculous!) Times change, we have the ease and technology with modern drills to make climbing safe and welcoming for beginners. Thank you for your contribution.

In my opinion there are plenty of well bolted, easy climbs on the front range that are not in the south platte. These areas all feel rather sporty and you go there for cragging. Even the sport crags in the splatte such as devils head often feel more like adventure climbing than cragging. Once begging climbers climb the one or two well bolted easy routes, then what? They still aren’t prepared for the rest of the easy routes in the area with larger run outs. I’m just not sure routes like this fit the character of the platte, and I don’t think that the character should change. 

Has anyone considered the possibility that the hangers were just simply stolen by some dirtbag climber to be used on another project?  Maybe there was no statement being made about the climbs themselves, rather the hangers were just easy to access?  The studs are still there and undamaged, no?  

jleiningwrote:

I do believe that the line your are calling Island in the Sun was already in existence prior though. I could be mistaken as it has been a long time, but looking at the pictures this route certainly was climbed before. When i climbed it, it had 1 bolt about 15-20 off the ground at the only real climbing, then continued up to the halfway rap anchor with no additional bolt, and no challenging climbing, then continue up more slab/scrambling to the upper anchor. If this is the case than this one route should certainly not have been retro bolted.

Thanks for your post. I think the route you're remembering is Island Express (in the Haas guide/MP), which which starts about 20 feet right of Island in the Sun, and was not impacted by the new route. They do get a little close to each other about 100' up, but remain distinct lines. The other route is Pee-Wee's First bolt, but that has more bolts than you mentioned, and starts quite a ways to the left. The new routes also don't impede Pee-Wee. 

Bob: I have considered that. It's unclear what the motive(s) were. Not all hangers were taken, and it seems that all the studs were left alone but without hangers/nuts/washers.

Tal Mwrote:

I don't think anyone is advocating for involving the FS here and this is pretty clearly an intentional effort to handle it internally.

I apologize, I read the part where the op posted the that the ranger said that they would rather not develop, and assumed that the conversation arose when he complained to the FS, which is completely unfounded. 

However, can we please stop using the word develop? Especially in conversations online and with land managers.  To a land manager the word brings to mind people unilaterally altering the land and installing equipment without oversight (which is what we do btw).I love the freedom we enjoy, but fear we are going to lose that soon if the scrutiny on climbers actions continues to intensify. I'd rather this shit not be online at all, along with the 'bolt your own sport route' blogs and videos, but know that is unrealistic.

My two pence...

Last winter I stumbled onto these routes and was delighted to climb some long, safe, moderate slab in a beautiful setting with zero people for miles. 

Friction/slab climbing is super fun, but after many years I've never managed to get any good at it -- primarily the mental aspect of it -- because of the potential fall consequences (on lead). Of course there are endless opportunities to top rope any grade and work on technique, but that only goes so far in preparation for the sharp end. Slab is a uniquely committing climbing discipline. 

I'm super psyched to report that Alan's routes have been not only fun, but have given me an opportunity to refine my technique for the area and make a lot of progress with the slab lead head. That has translated to me venturing onto some old-school lines, making sends that I'm super proud of. Some folks might make the valid point that I'm not cut out for slab climbing. If I want some training wheels in the form of a safe route, it is indeed evidence for lacking some degree of boldness. That's true, I really don't want to break my legs. But I am interested in incremental progress towards high-consequence routes.

I appreciate and love the rich history of South Platte climbing, and am awestruck looking at the intimidating accomplishments of many climbers. But I do believe old and new can find a way to coexist. Bali is a great example of what this can look like.

I think the routes should be restored. I respect the old-school Splatte lines, but the studs are already in and multiple folks have commented that they enjoyed these routes. 

In my opinion, the notion that tons of folks will now be venturing into the Splatte to get on a few moderate routes is unlikely. Aside from Staunton and DH, I haven't seen crowds in the Splatte. Sometimes routes require a bit of research, navigation, and stoke to find, which is part of the fun, but I just can't see Canal Zone-level crowds in an area with a few cool moderate pitches. I haven't climbed these routes, but from what I've read I think these routes provide a nice entry for new slab leaders who are stoked to get out there. 

Alan, Peter, and Sylvia - thanks for putting in safe routes with new leaders in mind. 

I would not want to see the old school Splatte ground up ethics get lost. I feel like there are safe beginner climbs all over the front range, and if a crag has a ground up tradition it’s kinda cool to keep it that way. 

bob steedwrote:

Has anyone considered the possibility that the hangers were just simply stolen by some dirtbag climber to be used on another project?  Maybe there was no statement being made about the climbs themselves, rather the hangers were just easy to access?  The studs are still there and undamaged, no?  

seems to be a reasonable hypothesis perhaps reinstall hangers using threadlock

Granite Grantwrote:

seems to be a reasonable hypothesis perhaps reinstall hangers using threadlock

If you want it bad enough threadloc doesn't work. Glue ins. If you are going to establish routes quit taking the easy path. You don't need instant gratification.

I've thought a lot about this lately and find the whole situation to be rather disheartening.

1. First and foremost, I'm upset that tradition was completely disregarded.  Yes, the traditions of the platte are outdated and often contrived, but over the years this tradition has kept the overall number of routes to a minimum.  When compared to neighboring areas like Devils Head, CCC, Staunton, etc, the Platte has a lot of character, and not everything that could be rock climbed has been bolted.  I'm not saying I wish these routes were runout or didn't exist.  I just wish that some semblance of tradition had been preserved.
2. I'm upset that the hangers were removed anonymously.  Even though the routes were out of character, the holes have been drilled and the damage is done.  Removing the hangers with zero dialogue is a cowardly act that does nothing to protect the climbing in the region.  The last thing we need is a bolt war between parties whose only communication is limited to adding/removing bolts and hangers.  

So where does this leave us? I've gone back and forth in my mind whether the hangers should be restored or not.  On one hand, the damage has been done, so why not put the hangers back and let folks enjoy these climbs again.  On the other hand, since WERTH is hiding under a rock somewhere, it is likely the hangers (or bolts) will be removed again. This would draw more attention to the region and potentially jeopardize access. Threadlock or glueins will never deter WERTH and will only cause more damage in the long run.  

For now, I'd say leave the hangers off and let the dust settle for a while.  The last thing we need is a bolt war with someone who has no interest in engaging with the community.

I have not climbed these routes, but have climbed a fair amount in the Splatte.  So, take this comment with a grain of salt.  

You mention you bolted this climb for 5.7 climbers.  What kind of 5.7 climber?  The 5.7 Earth Treks climber, the 5.7 Clear Creek climber or the 5.7 Splatte climber?  There is such diversity among climbing styles, techniques, rock type, climber skill sets... some are good at slab, some face, some overhanging, some crack, etc.   Did you just arbitrarily place bolts every 5 feet to make it feel safe for anybody, even the gym climber?  If so, you may have done a disservice to the area.   Or did you give some thought to the bolt placements?  If the route is truly sustained at the grade, then, perhaps consistent bolt spacing may be in order.  If the grade varies, perhaps place bolts near the harder climbing, then have touch of runout when the difficulty eases.  This may be a more appropriate intro to the area as this is the nature of many of the Splatte routes.  They tend to have bolts near cruxes, then a bit runout when the difficulty eases.  You don't have to have wild runouts to meet the Splatte style nor do you have to grid bolt it to make it safe.

Topo Oceans is a good example of this.  The final pitch has 2 options.  The right hand finish has twice as many bolts and a bit harder than the left hand version.  My first time up there, I opted for the better protected right hand version (stout for the grade!) because I thought it would be safer.  I was a bit intimidated by the more runout left hand variation with half as many bolts.  This pitch is quite sustained and warranted the higher bolt count.  A few years later, I opted to go on the adventure of the more runout left hand variation.  To my surprise, the bolt count and locations felt reasonable.  Bolts near the cruxes and a tad runout on easier terrain.  After the fact, I did not find this fairly runout pitch to be dangerous and it was really good!

Super glad to see Monty and Greg chiming in here. I wrote a really long thing, then deleted it. They said (much more eloquently) a lot of what I wanted to.

I have climbed the routes. They are nowhere near 5.7, especially SPlatte 5.7 in difficulty.  More like 5.3 - they are simple walk-ups. Not saying we don’t need easy routes, but the rating is so far off that it might give false confidence. Someone who thinks they are good to go on Platte 5.7 might head across the way to Java and get into real trouble on 5.6. So, I’d say they are bolted for the ET 5.7 climber (love that question Greg!)

I agree the hangers should be left off until things settle. I suspect they will be removed again (or worse) if replaced. Wish WERTH would engage at least with Alan privately. 

I'll not get into the conversation of rap placed bolts, although I am against them but will comment on the intent of the routes. It is a bit thin for me to believe that the routes were placed with the intent to have easy leads out of the goodness of your heart. Kind of like the guy that bolted a 5.3 next to the pictographs in Moab.

To the extent that the hangers may have been removed as a response to how the routes were created (rap bolted with power drill?) would this have happened if the same routes were put in ground up, on lead, and drilled by hand from stances?     

IMO, easy slab routes lend themselves to being climbed on lead from the ground up.  And bolting by hand from stances gives the leader plenty of time to contemplate the best path forward to the next logical stance/placement.  And since the climbing is relatively easy, the leader can place as many bolts as he or she deems necessary.  It just takes more time to climb in this style than coming in from above with a power drill.  This added time commitment speaks to a greater thoughtfulness of ones actions and intentions.  In my experience, going at it ground up is just a lot more engaging and fun than treating a slab like a steep sport route.  And if climbing these new routes ground up preserves the traditions of the area, then all the better.  Well bolted slab and ground up tradition are not mutually exclusive.  

I have no experience with the route in question but the removal of the hangers is vandalism. Let's call it what it is. If this was about anything else, he/she would have pulled the bolts and patched the holes. I fear this will happen to other routes. Proper bolt spacing like ratings can be subjective.

Alan Prehmuswrote:

In Spring 2020, Sylvia, Peter & I put up three new ~5.7 routes on the South Platte’s Bali Dome.  The routes were bolted for 5.7 climbers.  Some time in early June, someone removed many of the bolt hangers.  The routes are now unuseable.  I’m hoping to reach community consensus on if we should put the hangers back or fully remove the routes. 

The routes are Island in the Sun (Taylor Hinton Memorial), Girls on Surfboardsand Boys in Bikinis.  Click them to seeRoute detail including length, difficulty, bolt counts, ticks and the to-do lists.  We used 3/8 stainless steel Hilti wedge bolts, with modern SS hangers.

As of June 9, the hangers, washers and nuts were gone from the bolts.  On Island & Boys, at least the first 5 or 6 are gone.  On Girls, I could see that at least 1, 3 & 5 were gone.  The pitch one anchors were also removed.  The bolts themselves appeared untouched.  

No one has claimed responsibility for the act.  Not having a name, let’s refer to Who Ever Removed The Hangers as WERTH. 

I suspectthat WERTH’s act was intended as a defense of South Platte traditions and culture of hard ground up routes with ‘spicy’ protection. The Platte has lots of run outs on both easy and hard routes.  There are 5.5 to 5.8 routes with anchors but no lead protection:  They can only be soloed. Many of the South Platte classics include 15 – 20 ft. bolt spacing.  Many South Platte climbers revere required commitment.  

So with this history and culture, why did I put up easy routes with relatively generous bolting? The short answer is that I don’t think the CO Front Range has enough safe easy routes.  It has been a frustration of mine since taking beginners out in the 90’s. I think the South Platte spice is great, but I don’t think the so-called ‘ethic’ should prevent creation of a few easy routes that do not require risking life and limb. I think 5.7 leaders are no less deserving of good routes than 5.13 leaders.  While not everything needs to be safe, someclimbing should be.  5.7X is un-climbable for 5.7 leaders. The Front Range has plenty of spicy routes.  It has few bolted moderates, and fewer that are multi pitch.  

In part, it’s an inclusivity thing.  If our sport is to be inclusive of gender, race, ethnicity, etc., it should be inclusive of variety in risk tolerance.

In my view, these routes do not interfere in any way with enjoyment of the traditional bold routes.

The background for these route include that:

• Areas with good easy routes are hardto find.  
• The Forest Service heavily frowns on development of new areas in the South Platte.   The ranger responsible for recreation in this area told me “If you are a responsible developer, you won’t do it.” He sited social trails, parking and visual impacts as issues. He also pointed out that the existingForest Service regulations are easily interpreted to mean that allbolting is illegal.  Yes, its public land, but its no longer unregulated.
• There is no Fixed Hardware Review Committee for the area.  The Pikes Peak Climbers Alliance is primarily interested in the southern parts of the South Platte.  They declined engagement with me for an area south of Bali Dome.  
• Bali Dome had existing routes, but low use, great rock and lots of open space. 
• These routes were bolted on rap as sport routes, not ground up. 

I very much want to avoid an escalating ‘bolt war’.  It’s clearly easier to destroy routes than restore them.  I think simply replacing the hangers, or replacing the hangers with epoxy on the nuts, or replacing with glue in bolts, would all end badly for the rock.  If I (we!) can’t convince WERTH (and the community they represent) that the routes are OK, then they should probably be fully removed.   

I ask WERTH to please participate in the discussion, anonymously or otherwise.   We need to understand your rationale as to why these routes should not exist.

While this may be an emotional issue for many, I doubt expressions of anger or outrage will sway anyone.  Let’s keep the discussion calm. 

Should the routes get restored?

Can't people get stronger than 5.7 in the gym first and then come out and lead the original routes?

Calling these routes “only 5.3” is disingenuous at best. There is harder climbing on both. Maybe 5.6-5.7. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.

However, on the issue of rap bolting, I believe there are plenty of other climbs in the South Platte that were rap bolted. These climbs just got “chopped” because they were easy. Some sort of elitist, bravado BS.

I can climb “real slab” at 5.11, run out to 5.10. Yay for me! Who cares? I still thought these climbs were fun and worth doing. My wife was stoked to lead these. Now some ass has unilaterally decided that they are not allowed. What gives them the right?

One could ask what gives the developer the right to bolt these as they see fit.  Well, actually, the LAW gives them the right (or at least the land use regulations). If the chopper (or anyone else for that matter) disagrees with the style and manner of the development here, than they need to operate in the confines of democracy like everyone else and work to change the regulations. Anything else is vigilante “justice” and has no place in climbing or society.

The climbs here were closely bolted (by Spatte standards, yes), but not without thought. I don’t believe anyone is preventing anyone from skipping some (or all) of the bolts.

I hate to say this, but because people won’t mind their own f-ing business, the only “solution” is authority. In this case, I guess a fixed hardware review committee. Sucks, because I feel that often leads to “good-ol-boyism”, and preferential treatment. But bolt wars suck too. Why can’t people just be cool? And at least if you can’t be cool, than “man up” and show yourself, who you are, and what you stand for, so others can shun you and avoid you like the plague.

Tyson Ferrymanwrote:

Calling these routes “only 5.3” is disingenuous at best. There is harder climbing on both. Maybe 5.6-5.7. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.

However, on the issue of rap bolting, I believe there are plenty of other climbs in the South Platte that were rap bolted. These climbs just got “chopped” because they were easy. Some sort of elitist, bravado BS.

I can climb “real slab” at 5.11, run out to 5.10. Yay for me! Who cares? I still thought these climbs were fun and worth doing. My wife was stoked to lead these. Now some ass has unilaterally decided that they are not allowed. What gives them the right?

One could ask what gives the developer the right to bolt these as they see fit.  Well, actually, the LAW gives them the right (or at least the land use regulations). If the chopper (or anyone else for that matter) disagrees with the style and manner of the development here, than they need to operate in the confines of democracy like everyone else and work to change the regulations. Anything else is vigilante “justice” and has no place in climbing or society.

The climbs here were closely bolted (by Spatte standards, yes), but not without thought. I don’t believe anyone is preventing anyone from skipping some (or all) of the bolts.

I hate to say this, but because people won’t mind their own f-ing business, the only “solution” is authority. In this case, I guess a fixed hardware review committee. Sucks, because I feel that often leads to “good-ol-boyism”, and preferential treatment. But bolt wars suck too. Why can’t people just be cool? And at least if you can’t be cool, than “man up” and show yourself, who you are, and what you stand for, so others can shun you and avoid you like the plague.

Seriously though, I am all for "freedom" but the solution is that the noobs can find a competent leader to lead it for them and they can follow the route to get acquainted with it and hopefully lead it some day in the future. This way has been done for a long time and worked well, it's doing the noob a disservice to dumb down rock climbing.

This in lieu of a bolt ladder is a much more sustainable and reasonable solution.