Bolt hanger removal on Bali Dome in the South Platte

In Spring 2020, Sylvia, Peter & I put up three new ~5.7 routes on the South Platte’s Bali Dome.  The routes were bolted for 5.7 climbers.  Some time in early June, someone removed many of the bolt hangers.  The routes are now unuseable.  I’m hoping to reach community consensus on if we should put the hangers back or fully remove the routes. 

The routes are Island in the Sun (Taylor Hinton Memorial), Girls on Surfboardsand Boys in Bikinis.  Click them to seeRoute detail including length, difficulty, bolt counts, ticks and the to-do lists.  We used 3/8 stainless steel Hilti wedge bolts, with modern SS hangers.

As of June 9, the hangers, washers and nuts were gone from the bolts.  On Island & Boys, at least the first 5 or 6 are gone.  On Girls, I could see that at least 1, 3 & 5 were gone.  The pitch one anchors were also removed.  The bolts themselves appeared untouched.  

No one has claimed responsibility for the act.  Not having a name, let’s refer to Who Ever Removed The Hangers as WERTH. 

I suspectthat WERTH’s act was intended as a defense of South Platte traditions and culture of hard ground up routes with ‘spicy’ protection. The Platte has lots of run outs on both easy and hard routes.  There are 5.5 to 5.8 routes with anchors but no lead protection:  They can only be soloed. Many of the South Platte classics include 15 – 20 ft. bolt spacing.  Many South Platte climbers revere required commitment.  

So with this history and culture, why did I put up easy routes with relatively generous bolting? The short answer is that I don’t think the CO Front Range has enough safe easy routes.  It has been a frustration of mine since taking beginners out in the 90’s. I think the South Platte spice is great, but I don’t think the so-called ‘ethic’ should prevent creation of a few easy routes that do not require risking life and limb. I think 5.7 leaders are no less deserving of good routes than 5.13 leaders.  While not everything needs to be safe, someclimbing should be.  5.7X is un-climbable for 5.7 leaders. The Front Range has plenty of spicy routes.  It has few bolted moderates, and fewer that are multi pitch.  

In part, it’s an inclusivity thing.  If our sport is to be inclusive of gender, race, ethnicity, etc., it should be inclusive of variety in risk tolerance.

In my view, these routes do not interfere in any way with enjoyment of the traditional bold routes.

The background for these route include that:

• Areas with good easy routes are hardto find.  
• The Forest Service heavily frowns on development of new areas in the South Platte.   The ranger responsible for recreation in this area told me “If you are a responsible developer, you won’t do it.” He sited social trails, parking and visual impacts as issues. He also pointed out that the existingForest Service regulations are easily interpreted to mean that allbolting is illegal.  Yes, its public land, but its no longer unregulated.
• There is no Fixed Hardware Review Committee for the area.  The Pikes Peak Climbers Alliance is primarily interested in the southern parts of the South Platte.  They declined engagement with me for an area south of Bali Dome.  
• Bali Dome had existing routes, but low use, great rock and lots of open space. 
• These routes were bolted on rap as sport routes, not ground up. 

I very much want to avoid an escalating ‘bolt war’.  It’s clearly easier to destroy routes than restore them.  I think simply replacing the hangers, or replacing the hangers with epoxy on the nuts, or replacing with glue in bolts, would all end badly for the rock.  If I (we!) can’t convince WERTH (and the community they represent) that the routes are OK, then they should probably be fully removed.   

I ask WERTH to please participate in the discussion, anonymously or otherwise.   We need to understand your rationale as to why these routes should not exist.

While this may be an emotional issue for many, I doubt expressions of anger or outrage will sway anyone.  Let’s keep the discussion calm. 

Should the routes get restored?

I have no dog in the fight and don't know the local climbing politics. But your reasoning seems sounds. Climbing is increasingly being held to the same standards as other outdoor activities in terms of access and inclusivity. If you aren't squeezing other older routes or  causing a ton of impact in a sensitive area - like encouraging lots of newer beginner climbers to park where the parking is limited, for example - it seems like you ought to have "the right" to put up a route of your own. 

However, and this is a big however: if the routes in this area have traditionally been put in ground up without rap bolting, then I take it all back and you need to find another area with low angle and top-accessible rock to rap bolt. Areas with this kind of tradition need to be preserved in their original character and routes like these would represent a direct threat through encouraging further copy cat bolting.

Alan said the existing routes were rap bolted, at least that's my interpretation of his post. This would make the argument of ground up bolting as the tradition in this area invalid.

Also, just because something is traditionally done one way, doesn't mean that's the right way or best way. Things change, society evolves. I respect Alan's goal to make climbing more inclusive and accessible to everyone, not just to people who like to keep things scary and spicy. I haven't done the routes in question, but I do have them on my to-do list because I read that they were bolted with scardy cats like myself in mind. My vote is to put the hangers back BUT I would like for the people who took them to put them back, or at least for the people who took the hangers to speak with the FAs (either publicly or privately) and reach an agreement on what to do. I don't want to see the hangers put back only to get taken again.

Alan Prehmus wrote:

• Bali Dome had existing routes, but low use, great rock and lots of open space. 
• These routes were bolted on rap as sport routes, not ground up. 

I was just talking to Peter about this a couple of weeks ago - I don't think you could pay me to bolt a new route in the Malay just due to the inconsistent but strong ethics held there. The whole area is the exactly opposite of "strong opinions loosely held" and it makes it a bit of a nightmare. 

Personally, I agree that the area needs more closely bolted sport lines for new leaders - as they do nothing to detract from the existing, quality, runout lines in the area. I think the runouts are just a hubris thing because the same people who talk about preserving the runout character of the platte are the same people who go and just dump gear into classic dihedral or center route. 

That being said - I also agree with bryans here. If a crag was established ground up, I believe in maintaining that ground-up tradition. I don't care about the bolt spacing, as long as it makes sense (aka not a bolt ladder) and was done ground up. But even then, the area isn't consistent. This route was almost certainly a rap bolted route that has survived the bolt wars. We have multiple literal bolt ladders in the same area that have survived. Weren't most the climbs at borneo slab developed on rap, or at least, not from stances on lead? I'm not sure how these various examples get passes but yours don't.

I don't know - my ideal solution would be to go back and replace the hangers (potentially with loctite cause I doubt WERTH is gonna participate here and recognize that you're extending the olive branch) on lead, ground up. But that seems more like cutting the baby in half than actually doing anything that both parties would be happy with, so who knows.

Not to derail the thread - but holy shit, this quote

The ranger responsible for recreation in this area told me “If you are a responsible developer, you won’t do it.”

Man it fucking sucks that the powers that be in the platte area are so resistant to climbing. People braaap braaap all around the platte absolutely destroying the trails, you can't walk a quarter mile in any direction without coming across some spent shells or busted clay pigeons, and any easily accessible part of the river is strewn with old fishing lines and lures. But climbers are the ones who get the shit end of the deal? I get that the behavior of climbers isn't impeccable but it's not any worse than the other parties. Hell, we were hearing bullets hit off the rock all around us when putting up a new line at Inferno slab a few weeks back - it's just shitty. Especially when most of the local hangout spots around the platte really play up the whole climbing culture of the platte (Zoka's with the painting, the bucksnort, etc.) The recent changes to Rampart Range Road cripple climbers' access significantly (as they don't use motorized vehicles to traverse around the region once they park). It's just a shame - the Platte is one of my favorite places on Earth but the USFS does an excellent job of making me feel like I'm trespassing just by trying to recreate in a way that isn't OHV/Fishing/Shooting in the region.

In the face of access issues Peter and Alan are attacking this issue head on. You’re telling me that if rebolt all these routes on lead and be in line with the tradition of the crag it will be okay? Come on. These routes were excellent and all of you need to go eat crow if you think they need to be rebolted or taken down. Traditions that are dumb and hinder access when we can provide people with more access and teach them to be safe and enjoy themselves feels like the greater project. The tradition of this crag is dumb and irrelevant to routes that no hard lead climber would climb. Let’s get these routes back up and let’s get people on them so they can learn and have fun.

I don't have much right or desire to comment on the routes or wether or not they deserve to stay, but going to the FS with our silly little dramas certainly doesn't help our collective cause.

I don't think anyone is advocating for involving the FS here and this is pretty clearly an intentional effort to handle it internally.

I see the ground-up, spicy bolting ethic as more of a guideline than a rule, and while I'm not totally stoked on people rap-bolting in the Platte, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it. However if it does leave a lasting impact on the rock (like gridbolting) and is an eyesore like those bolt ladders Tal mentioned, I don't think it has any place in the Platte. These routes seemed to be mindfully bolted on rappel with reasonable bolt spacing while not also being overbolted. There is no reason NOT to put the missing hangers back, and it truly doesn't matter if you do that on lead or rappel. And Alan, if you need any hangers I have a few I can donate.

As for the fuckhead who did remove the hangers, I'm willing to bet they did that on rappel while nobody was watching.

First of all, nice meeting you in Staunton the other day, Alan. Thank you for the wonderful trad lines you have established in Staunton and for the time you dedicate to that park.

I don’t think anonymously chopping your bolts was the best way for WERTH to express an opinion about them, at all. WERTH should have reached out to you. And, I appreciate the time, cost and energy that establishing these routes took. I thank you for your intention.

However, in terms of personal opinion as to whether or not these routes should be restored - I do not think these routes should be restored. Bali Done is in the Malay Archipelago of S. Platte, not Staunton or Devil’s Head. The bolting is not consistent with the tradition or ethic of the area. Cell signal, parking and approach trails are limited in much of the S. Platte including Malay - encouraging an influx of additional climber traffic looking for entry level bolted routes does not seem like the best idea for this specific area. Especially here, where a ranger has specifically raised concerns about bolting, parking and social trails to you. It seems that adding these routes - which include bolts and may add parking and social trail traffic - raises the potential to negatively impact access.

With respect to adding routes to Bali Dome specifically, routes were listed on that wall in the Trout and Haas books and on MP already. Did the prior developers have an opportunity to weigh in on your additional routes? Acording to the Haas book, bolts were chopped on this very dome previously so it isn’t shocking it’s happened again. It also looks like Good Left Hand listed in the Haas book is the same or close to your route Girls on Surfboards.

Thanks for considering my thoughts.

Thanks for posting this Alan. I’ll be interested to see what if any consensus comes.

I think the routes should be restored and hangers replaced. 

I grew up climbing in the South Platte and Garden of the Gods. I revered the old "hard men" and the commitment that came with doing many of the older routes. I built a trad rack well before buying sport draws and learned to climb on traditional protection. 

In high school I worked at gear store in Colorado Springs and got to meet many of the locals who put up routes in the 60’s-80’s. I remember hearing Harvey Carter talk about chopping a route, how he spent all day to perfectly erase bolts someone put up. I thought it was fantastic. I still believe that there is a place for bold runout routes, and that much of what has been done in that tradition should be preserved. I’d been climbing 20 years before I placed a bolt, and then it was mostly replacing old bad bolts. 

While I still love traditional routes, and the runouts present on many old climbs, I also recognize that climbing has changed a lot in the last 20-years, as have many of the people who climb. I’ve been intermittently resistant to this, but feel new climbers, and climbers not interested in the bold climbs traditional in the Platte still deserve to have routes they can climb safely. The 5.7 R/X slab climbs were not put up by 5.7 climbers, and much of the opportunity for safe climbs, especially multi-pitch at this grade has been exhausted. 

I’m troubled most by the double standards that exist in climbing. Many people who begrudge closely bolted moderates would have no problem with a much more tightly bolted climb if it were 5.12 or harder. Many routes have been rap bolted by people who demand the ground up ethic. Sport routes exist throughout the S. Platte, but the moderate routes are the ones primarily criticized. 

These safe moderate climbs also get some of the most enjoyment. If you look at the routes on Bali, Pee-Wee’s first bolt gets a half star, and Island express one star, while the three defaced routes all have 3 stars. There are not that many 5.12 climbers, and many well bolted 5.12s. there are many 5.7 climbers, and not that many safe routes for them. 

I can respect someone chopping a route for truly held ethical beliefs. I can respect people like Harvey Carter who meticulously erased a route and admitted to doing it. This feels a little like chicken-shit ethics to me. It did nothing to restore the rock. There are still bolt studs sticking out of the rock. It merely prevents anyone else from enjoying the climbs.  

Anyone can take the nut off a stud and pocket the hanger, but if the consensus is that these climbs should not exist, it will take hours of work to pull the bolts and patch the holes. 

I think WERTH’s engagement is what is really sought by this thread, but beyond that I am most interested in the voices of people who have climbed on Bali Dome, either before or after these routes went up. It seems from the comments that most commenters have not been here. Bali dome is a great place for these routes. There is ample parking in designated lots along the road (with an outhouse). There are existing social trails to access the rock, existing routes that were not impinged, and there was space for new routes. That’s why the routes went here.

Climb Things wrote:

Bali Done is in the Malay Archipelago of S. Platte, not Staunton or Devil’s Head. The bolting is not consistent with the tradition or ethic of the area. Cell signal, parking and approach trails are limited in much of the S. Platte including Malay - encouraging an influx of additional climber traffic looking for entry level bolted routes does not seem like the best idea for this specific area. Especially here, where a ranger has specifically raised concerns about bolting, parking and social trails to you. It seems that adding these routes - which include bolts and may add parking and social trail traffic - raises the potential to negatively impact access.

You write that that this isn’t Devil’s Head but fail to recognize that Devil’s head is in the South Platte, or that by the feelings conveyed, none of the sport climbing in Devil’s head should exist. That too was a traditionally developed area with few bolts, most of which were placed on lead. Jackson Creek and Devil's head proper have been climbed on for decades. 

With respect to adding routes to Bali Dome specifically, routes were listed on that wall already in the Trout and Haas books and on MP already. Did the prior developers have an opportunity to weigh in on your additional routes? Acording to the Haas book, bolts were chopped on this very dome previously so it isn’t shocking it’s happened again. It also look like Good Left Hand listed in the Haas book is the same or a similar line to your route Girls on Surfboards.

I’m supportive of preserving climbs as set by the FA. However, this should not extend to an entire formation or area. There is little opportunity for well protected multipitch climbs throughout the front range. There are hundreds of 5.7R/X climbs throughout this region. I'd also note that Good Left Hand was done as a solo, and there is no way to know where it originally went. 

Climb Things wrote:  

With respect to adding routes to Bali Dome specifically, routes were listed on that wall in the Trout and Haas books and on MP already. Did the prior developers have an opportunity to weigh in on your additional routes? Acording to the Haas book, bolts were chopped on this very dome previously so it isn’t shocking it’s happened again. It also looks like Good Left Hand listed in the Haas book is the same or close to your route Girls on Surfboards.

Thanks for considering my thoughts.

You 100% don't need the permission of prior or current developers to bolt a new route on "their" crag, unless of course you are retrobolting an established route.

i climbed in this area a fair bit in the late 90's to early to mid 2000's.  during this time i think i only saw other parties twice (derek lawrence both times IIRC).  i climbed all 4 routes listed in the hubbel book, but the left 2 routes may have been missing their bolts (i can't quite remember).  mostly i remember the routes not being that great, and not surprised that nobody climbs them.  maybe there has been some sort of quantum shift in the popularity of slab climbing, but i don't really see this being mobbed by people.  the concerns about this place getting swamped, social trails, etc, seem like kind of a stretch.

in some ways this is probably the perfect place for friendly bolted slab routes, as they aren't likely to get that popular and they aren't going to detract from nearby great lines (as there aren't any).  it probably sounds like i am being harsh on this area, but i actually like these types of areas.  less popular with the instatwits seflying every 4 star route.

T D wrote:

You 100% don't need the permission of prior or current developers to bolt a new route on "their" crag, unless of course you are retrobolting an established route.

Good job mansplaining Tyler. Love you though!

You all need to relize this was more likely the locals with the farm next to it aer the ones that removed them. They hate us at this point!

T D wrote:

You 100% don't need the permission of prior or current developers to bolt a new route on "their" crag, unless of course you are retrobolting an established route.

This Is'nt mill creek Tyler.

I knew several of the old time Splatteheads. I went to high school with a few. Their heyday was long fucking time ago. They are all either dead or decrepit now. There comes a point where the archaic old ways give way to a new paradigm. 

The bolt chopper most certainly wasn't from that era, we need walkers for an approach and most certainly aren't going to waste our valuable 3 hours between naps doing all the work to rig a rappel just to steal hangers.

This was the work of a SPlatte Ne'er-do-well, a shallow personality taking on a ethic that never actually existed as people think. The runouts were so only because hand drilling from a stance sucks. The ground up nature in place only because the convenience of a power drill didn't exist yet. Robby, Alan and Ken definitely tapped in toprope anchors when they could.

WERTH is merely a posuer appropriating a faux culture that only existed because that was simply the only option available to them. These guys used Goldline era climbing as a sort of self-flaggelation from being uninvited to the hangouts and parties of the Mid 70's*. I had my opportunities to hang out with them too, but I preferred being popular and having girls around instead. So my message to the WERTH is, stop emulating a paradigm that wasn't nearly as cool as time has made it out to be. You are only succeeding in being an enormous dick.

*Namely the Chutes near Deckers. 

Justin Winger wrote:

Good job mansplaining Tyler. Love you though!

Arguing against someone's point is also 100% not mansplaining. No idea why you brought Mill Creek into this. I've never been. Why don't you mansplain that to me?

Wow; people suck!

These are good routes to develop slab technique, were well bolted and fun.

I’d say put the hangers back for sure. Wish I had some answers beyond that. 

Thanks for your efforts in development; sorry you have to deal with this bs. 

Tal M wrote:

Man it fucking sucks that the powers that be in the platte area are so resistant to climbing. People braaap braaap all around the platte absolutely destroying the trails, you can't walk a quarter mile in any direction without coming across some spent shells or busted clay pigeons, and any easily accessible part of the river is strewn with old fishing lines and lures. But climbers are the ones who get the shit end of the deal? I get that the behavior of climbers isn't impeccable but it's not any worse than the other parties. Hell, we were hearing bullets hit off the rock all around us when putting up a new line at Inferno slab a few weeks back - it's just shitty. Especially when most of the local hangout spots around the platte really play up the whole climbing culture of the platte (Zoka's with the painting, the bucksnort, etc.) The recent changes to Rampart Range Road cripple climbers' access significantly (as they don't use motorized vehicles to traverse around the region once they park). It's just a shame - the Platte is one of my favorite places on Earth but the USFS does an excellent job of making me feel like I'm trespassing just by trying to recreate in a way that isn't OHV/Fishing/Shooting in the region.

Hear! Hear! I 100% agree.

A line of bolts really bothers people? Ha!  No one is coming here for “destination climbing”. The impact of these routes on parking, “social trails” or anything else will be very minimal. If this kind of “development” gets anyone worked up, that is on them and they should reassess their motivations and desire to be triggered.

Wish the person who removed these hangers would own up to it, but they won’t. Weak people with weak minds hide in the safety of anonymity. 

I haven't been out to bali dome in years so i haven't physically seen the bolts Alan put up. I do believe that the line your are calling Island in the Sun was already in existence prior though. I could be mistaken as it has been a long time, but looking at the pictures this route certainly was climbed before. When i climbed it, it had 1 bolt about 15-20 off the ground at the only real climbing, then continued up to the halfway rap anchor with no additional bolt, and no challenging climbing, then continue up more slab/scrambling to the upper anchor. If this is the case than this one route should certainly not have been retro bolted.

Long rant below

I agree with slim that nothing there is really worth remembering on bali dome, pretty moderate slab climbing with bolts at the only challenging places. It was a place to go do a few lines if you only had less than half a day. I don't see this area being mobbed with an influx of "climbers" because now there is are few bolted lines that remove any fear or spice. Not at Bali dome at least, but where does this end. teaching new people if you don't like the character of something you can just change it.  Climbing is changing, whether we/you like it not. the new era is all about removing the spice and boldness. Climbing is just as much a mental sport as it is physical one, i would argue that most climbs are more of a mental challenge than physical one. (obviously i'm speaking to my experience, and  a new climber would probably disagree.) Sure there are still those who are pushing the limits but the masses aren't following the ways of the past. they just want the gym to be outside. And if you remove the mental aspect from the sport than that what then is climbing.... golf... no thanks. This whole push to make climbing inclusive is a foreign language to me. Climbing was performed by the misfits and outcasts, the rebels, the people who didn't really fit in. Back when i started climbing this is how it was, you had to have a screw loose to want to do these climbs. now that climbing is as mainstream as skiing everyone is just wanting to get the next post for their instas, or snaps, or whatever. 

I do lots of other activities in the Platte than just climbing. I ride atvs and dirt bikes, i shot guns, fish, mountain bike, etc. Restrictions on these other users groups because of over use are certainly happening too, it is not just climbers. And with the population of the frontrange still exploding overuse is becoming more of an issue with come more "restrictions". I started climbing in the platte in the late '90s, certainly half the stuff i've climbed appears to have never been climbed but they most certainly were. Shit half the routes i see people in this thread post on MP as their own FA were climbed decades ago. 

In short, i don't see the demand for safely bolted easy slab climbs, so i fail to see the need to fulfill the demand. Do i care about the other two routes added, no. I do care that opening up climbs to everybody brings more crowds and can cause more restrictions on access. 

Shit half the routes i see people in this thread post on MP as their own FA were climbed decades ago.

Can we put this claim to bed? I've seen this so many times and it has to just be bs - these are often 5.10 or harder routes that were dirty, loose, and otherwise unprotectable by the gear at the time. I get that the platte had a lot of hardmen, but the chances for lines with no evidence of having being climbed actually having FAs dramatically decreases as the difficulty increases - otherwise we'd see a lot more 5.10+ R/X routes than we do (and ones that don't actually look like 5.11a (5.7R)). Additionally, a lot of these climbs are genuine 2+ star routes/problems. You're telling me the climbers of the platte - a group notorious for bolting wars and topos in the bucksnort book and so many other ego related activities - really wouldn't spray about these routes thus cementing their place in the local lore? I mean, yeah, maybe in this case these easy slabs were feasibly soloed in the past by a single bored hardman, but I consistently see this attributed to much harder, steeper, and technical climbs around the platte.