Wide Boyz Look at Empath for Jams

ClimberRunnerwrote:

Is this as hard as Necessary Evil, Meltdown (even if led on pre-placed gear like a sport climb), Hubble, or Kryponite, all famous benchmark .14c routes? (.14d for Kryptonite)

I bet if you took 20 climbers who have climbed 9a in the last couple years and gave them 2 weeks (including rest days) to try this route and then 2 weeks to try a variety of historic benchmark .14c pitches, the batting average would be better on Empath than most of the others. 

There's no way this is 5.15, even if you don't know how to rock climb with the use of your hands or feet in a crack.

And what exactly is this based on....?

Eric Dwrote:

The Wide Boyz trying to find a jam or two on silence (or this new route) is like me out sprinting an Olympic marathoner for 20 seconds. Pretty dang irrelevant. 

Yea watching Connor cruise it, definitely feels like wide boyz would find the optimal “alternate crack beta” and agree with a sub 5.15 rating.

I love armchair quarterbacking on climbs of this level   

Eric Dwrote:

The Wide Boyz trying to find a jam or two on silence (or this new route) is like me out sprinting an Olympic marathoner for 20 seconds. Pretty dang irrelevant. 

Irrelevant? They actually have climbed 5.14+ cracks.

ClimberRunnerwrote:

Is this as hard as Necessary Evil, Meltdown (even if led on pre-placed gear like a sport climb), Hubble, or Kryponite, all famous benchmark .14c routes? (.14d for Kryptonite)

I bet if you took 20 climbers who have climbed 9a in the last couple years and gave them 2 weeks (including rest days) to try this route and then 2 weeks to try a variety of historic benchmark .14c pitches, the batting average would be better on Empath than most of the others. 

There's no way this is 5.15, even if you don't know how to rock climb with the use of your hands or feet in a crack.

I think everyone is underestimating the importance of having many of the best climbers in the country refining the beta together over the last two seasons. Apparently the beta Traversi, Woods, and Webb used last year was less efficient than what everyone has worked out this season. It's naive to think that the same crew wouldn't have similar success on Necessary Evil or Kryptonite, which Ethan Pringle and Carlo Traversi have both done. 

A few other data points:

• Traversi has sent Meltdown and come close on Magic Line. He decided Empath was considerably harder.
• Ethan Pringle said it felt harder than his FA of Everything is Karate (14C/D), another granite pseudo-crack. Traversi and Keenan Takahashi have also done Karate and took it at 14C. Takahashi has climbed 14D on granite in Ticino (Coup de Grace).
• Paige Claasen did Algorithm (14D) in the Fins a few years ago and couldn't put together Empath in a month or so of working on it. She has also done Necessary Evil.
• Jimmy Webb has done Dreamcatcher (benchmark granite 14D) and said Empath was harder. 
• Daniel Woods has sent multiple 5.15s, including Thor's Hammer (15A) on Flatanger granite.
• Connor told me Empath felt in the range of 14C or 14D for him. He's probably the best all around American granite climber since Tommy Caldwell. I don't think it's hard to imagine that the route could feel harder with less optimized beta.

It seems that Empath will probably settle around 14D or 9a/+. Not sure why there seems to be a strong implication of bad faith actors pervading the thread. It's an awesome sustained resistance line. Let's just be happy about the sends and enjoy the next round of footage. 

David Ywrote:

And what exactly is this based on....?

The quantity of quick repeats and the number of sessions that the repeats have taken.

It's being redpointed by multiple people much faster than established .14d or .15a routes, and I bet faster than .14c Necessary Evil or Meltdown (even attempting Meltdown as a sport climb).

ClimberRunnerwrote:

The quantity of quick repeats and the number of sessions that the repeats have taken.

It's being redpointed by multiple people much faster than established .14d or .15a routes, and I bet faster than .14c Necessary Evil or Meltdown (even attempting Meltdown as a sport climb).

Not sure why you keep browbeating everyone with Meltdown, a line that is highly conditions and footwork dependent. 

Shockingly enough, it's possible that an overhanging resistance line that appears straightforward for V15-V17 boulderers might legitimately deserve a harder YDS/French grade than Meltdown. 

Three people have sent Perfecto Mundo, and three people have sent the crux pitch on the Dawn Wall. That doesn't mean both should be 15C. 

Can we just be stoked that Connor is sending with the top players in between his homework?

Matt Miccioliwrote:

Not sure why you keep browbeating everyone with Meltdown, a line that is highly conditions and footwork dependent. 

Shockingly enough, it's possible that an overhanging resistance line that appears straightforward for V15-V17 boulderers might legitimately deserve a harder YDS/French grade than Meltdown. 

Three people have sent Perfecto Mundo, and three people have sent the crux pitch on the Dawn Wall. That doesn't mean both should be 15C. 

Browbeating? I mentioned it twice, since along with Necessary Evil and Just Do It, I bet it's the most famous .14c in the country, and new pitches are graded relative to the difficulty other pitches. Since I'm suggesting Empath will end up graded no harder than .14c, I suggested a few famous single pitch .14c routes that I would bet would have an equal or worse "batting average" of success from the same climbers and same number of days of effort.

Since you disagree with me, what is a famous benchmark single pitch .14c that you think is going to end up being consensus easier than Empath, let alone 2 grades easier, than Empath?

I suggested a few .14c and a .14d that I think will be considered as hard or harder, implying Empath isn't going to end up 5.15a or .14d

When measuring based on number of repeats, a traverse pitch halfway up the hardest bigwall freeclimb in the world is a stupid comparison. 

The climb looks great, but it's been done by 7(?) people already? And two of them said they felt ready to send on the 3rd session (though Pringle smashed into a tree limb - yikes!). That doesn't happen on a consensus .15a.

ClimberRunnerwrote:

(though Pringle smashed into tree limb). That doesn't happen on a 5.15a.

That's because on 5.15's, the tree's get the chop! Ethan Pringle of all people would know about that!

I'll see myself out now.

ClimberRunnerwrote:

Browbeating? I mentioned it twice, since along with Necessary Evil and Just Do It, I bet it's the most famous .14c in the country, and new pitches are graded relative to other pitches.

Name a famous benchmark single pitch .14c that you think is going to end up being consensus easier than Empath, let alone 2 grades easier, than Empath.

I suggested a few that I think will be considered as hard or harder, implying Empath isn't going to end up 5.15a or .14d

When measuring based on number of repeats, a traverse pitch halfway up the hardest bigwall freeclimb in the world is a stupid comparison. 

The climb looks great, but it's been done by 5(?) people already? And two of them said they felt ready to send on the 3rd session (though Pringle smashed into tree limb). That doesn't happen on a 5.15a.

Since I'm bored, here's a comparison with Necessary Evil. As far as I can tell, two people have sent both Empath and Necessary Evil, namely Ethan Pringle and Daniel Woods.

DWoods: Sent Necessary Evil in 2006, at which point it was his hardest sport climb. He did it in "4 days, 6 trys." Sent Empath in 2020, at which point he had sent routes up to 15b. Unclear how many tries unfortunately. FWIW, Jimmy spent ~5 days in the summer and ~4 days in the fall, and what footage there is shows them working it together in the fall. (EDIT: OK, from the post below, apparently Daniel put in roughly the same amount of time (10 days).)

Ethan Pringle: Sent Necessary Evil in 2007, 4 tries over 2 days (+1 try a few years prior on the end which is shared with another route.) Sent Empath over 8 days (OK, given the tree, he probably could have sent sooner.) 

IDK, I don't really see the justification for Necessary Evil being harder than Empath, especially "if you don't know how to rock climb with the use of your hands or feet in a crack".

(On the other hand, given that everyone who's jammed it has thought 14+, I totally believe that with optimal beta it's not 15a.) 

The climb looks great, but it's been done by 7(?) people already? And two of them said they felt ready to send on the 3rd session (though Pringle smashed into a tree limb - yikes!). That doesn't happen on a consensus .15a.

I'm not sure I buy this in this when .14d has been onsighted and people are putting down 15a's in <10 attempts. Here's what Traversi said about the grade on 8a.nu:

Do you know how many sessions the guys repeating it did used and what about the grade? (We asked FA Traversi.) Daniel and Jimmy put in about 10 days of work. Nathaniel a bit less, but we gave him all the beta. Hard to say if it’s soft when you have some of the best American climbers trying it in perfect conditions. Also, 9a+ isn’t the top of the scale anymore. It’s a hard route to grade. I honestly didn’t really know. Daniel told me it was comparable to First Round (9b). Jimmy said it was much harder than Dreamcatcher (9a). So those comparisons helped inform my grade suggestion. But it’s just a suggestion, as always with grades, time will tell. I will say though, everyone who has repeated it is capable of climbing 9a+ in a day if they find the right route. We just don’t have a lot of hard routes to test ourselves on in America.

You guys are all nerds

Todd Berlier wrote:

not sure nerd is the correct word.

imo if one can't climb something they can't contribute to a meaningful conversation about its grade.

Since when has meaning been the goal on MP? I'm just bored and need something to do while it's too hot to climb.

A glaring example of how trad climbers are much more well rounded athlete. They found the correct beta for this climb, downgrade is well deserved.

Tradibanwrote:

A glaring example of how trad climbers are much more well rounded athlete. They found the correct beta for this climb, downgrade is well deserved.

More like a glaring example of how fools believe anything.  

Wide boys show up look at climb and say "oh there's jams. Theres better beta." But then they don't jam it? They didnt send? Then the "jam beta" is invalid salad. Put up or shut up. 

15a's just not that hard for the top .1% anymore.  Ondra flashed the grade. V15-16 boulders getting a 15a down in a few sessions seems totally reasonable. Doesnt mean it needs a down grade. Beta is subjective style is subjective.  If you don't send your opinion and beta are just bs. They should go back to climbing under dirty bridges. Thst was interesting. Their new look for jam beta but dont climb it format is a snoozefest.

PNW Chosswrote:

More like a glaring example of how fools believe anything.  

Wide boys show up look at climb and say "oh there's jams. Theres better beta." But then they don't jam it? They didnt send? Then the "jam beta" is invalid salad. Put up or shut up. 

15a's just not that hard for the top .1% anymore.  Ondra flashed the grade. V15-16 boulders getting a 15a down in a few sessions seems totally reasonable. Doesnt mean it needs a down grade. Beta is subjective style is subjective.  If you don't send your opinion and beta are just bs. They should go back to climbing under dirty bridges. Thst was interesting. Their new look for jam beta but dont climb it format is a snoozefest.

The Wide Boyz video was speculation that it seems has now been confirmed.  Worth noting that they never actually went to the climb, just watched the video of the FA and speculated.  But according to Connor at least there are jams, so the Wide Boyz were right, ipso facto trad climbers are better at sport than vice versa.  

We’re one generation away from fantasy climbing leagues 

Empath is a 5.15 with a 5.14 alternate start. Where that start actually begins, I can't really say. 

Long Rangerwrote:

If it had good cracks, it would go on gear, which it doesn't - nothing at that grade really does. 

Tribe... 9a+ on gear