Gunks fatality Saturday May 22nd

I was very sad to hear that the sirens I heard while at the Gunks Saturday were heralding a fatality, but I haven't been able to learn anything else about what had happened.  Apparently it occurred very close to where I was climbing (Jackie and Friends area).

Does anyone know what happened exactly and/or who was affected?  My sincere condolences to all touched by this tragedy. 

There's a post on the gunks partners fb page but no details

Chris Duca wrote:

There is, but as expected, it digressed into a tit-for-tat discussion. 

I don't have fb so I must not be able to see all the comments.  Did it say what route?

Climb Onwrote:

I don't have fb so I must not be able to see all the comments.  Did it say what route?

No, there were no specifics.

Climb Onwrote:

I don't have fb so I must not be able to see all the comments.  Did it say what route?

The only thing someone said was that it was between CC and Betty.

There's most likely an important reason that there's no information about this tragedy considering that it happened in such a highly trafficked location.

Just be patient. There's no reason anyone urgently needs to know about this besides the victims friends and family. If you want to read and analyze accident reports and apply the lessons from them to become a safer climber, there are thousands of reports freely available online here: https://publications.americanalpineclub.org/

Please be sensitive. Many people witnessed this, including several non-climbers and first time climbers. Some friends and family will stumble across this post out of a desire to know what happened in greater detail while they mourn.

J Bwrote:

There's no reason anyone urgently needs to know about this besides the victims friends and family.

We should definitely respect wishes of the parties involved. 

One exception would be anything directly related to the safety of other climbers, mostly related to route directly - bad anchors, bad protection, bad rock. Anything else can wait.

Alaina Gardner wrote:

I would hope that when it's related to a route, like loose rock or something they do close down the area or announce any hazards right away?

I don't know anything about Saturday's fatality, so I'm not commenting on it, other than to express condolences to those painfully affected by it.

I would like to respond to your post, Alaina, by citing the Mohonk Preserve's Climbing Policy, which one can access here. In particular, Section I ("Access"), Paragraph A ("Responsibility"): "Climbers must exercise their freedom to choose their own routes and climbing styles, within the limits necessitated by the uniqueness and fragility of the environment and the rights, needs and safety of other climbers and users of the land. Responsibility for safe climbing rests solely with the individual climber. Mohonk Preserve, Inc. does not maintain the rocks, cliffs, or other natural features of the terrain, does not provide supervision or instruction, and is not responsible for the condition of the terrain, or the acts of persons who may be on its property."

I don't hope for, expect or want the Preserve to curate the climbing experience for me. That path, I fear, leads to more regulation and restricted access. 

Sending (virtual) condolences

Alaina Gardner wrote:

I would hope that when it's related to a route, like loose rock or something they do close down the area or announce any hazards right away?

There was loose rock on Middle Earth the morning of 3/23/21 when a very large, loose rock (boulder) rolled off the GT ledge as I pulled it after testing it beforehand when it seemed to not want to budge at all. When the block rolled it also broke another “smaller” one ton block off, which bounced over my partner’s head while he was stranded at the belay chains atop pitch one.

My block luckily was stopped after crushing the front half of my left foot (now fully amputated and reconstructed with five nitinol screws and a staple) by a dwarf pine indigenous only to the area. That little tree kept my right hand from being fully pinned and most likely my partner from being killed. 

Climbing is inherently dangerous.

I was rescued and helped by many people.

The rangers did their part to remove the loose block when it was safe to, and kept me from dying and completely losing my limb from further amputation that day.

I consider myself extremely lucky.

If anything like this happened while climbing Pingora in the Wind River Range, WY, last summer while climbing, it would be a much different story due to proximity to people in general. The Gunks is unlike any other climbing experience that I know of.

Please realize that wearing a helmet, checking knots and harnesses, positive communication, etc... is always inherently better and most likely mitigates a great day outside from going south, but things still can and will go wrong sometimes.

We are and always have been responsible for the “adventure” we pursue. 

Do not assume anything.

Andy Wiesnerwrote:

I don't know anything about Saturday's fatality, so I'm not commenting on it, other than to express condolences to those painfully affected by it.

I would like to respond to your post, Alaina, by citing the Mohonk Preserve's Climbing Policy, which one can access here. In particular, Section I ("Access"), Paragraph A ("Responsibility"): "Climbers must exercise their freedom to choose their own routes and climbing styles, within the limits necessitated by the uniqueness and fragility of the environment and the rights, needs and safety of other climbers and users of the land. Responsibility for safe climbing rests solely with the individual climber. Mohonk Preserve, Inc. does not maintain the rocks, cliffs, or other natural features of the terrain, does not provide supervision or instruction, and is not responsible for the condition of the terrain, or the acts of persons who may be on its property."

I don't hope for, expect or want the Preserve to curate the climbing experience for me. That path, I fear, leads to more regulation and restricted access. 

Exactly, the access and sheer volume of routes at the Gunks is crazy. I feel like people though forget that climbing can be dangerous without even taking lead falls while at the Gunks (or anywhere), the amount of people there and proximity to the road/trail almost lure you into a false sense of security. Every time I go the the Gunks I witness something dangerous happening. I just chalk it up to being so close to so many major population centers and the ease of access.

This sounds like it was written by a non-climber, but at least we have a bit more information on Saturday's fatality.

Joe Antolwrote:

This sounds like it was written by a non-climber, but at least we have a bit more information on Saturday's fatality.

Link does not work for me.

the information that has come out is profoundly unhelpful. poor person, regardless. 

https://www.dailyfreeman.com/news/crime-and-public-safety/brooklyn-man-31-dies-in-fall-at-mohonk-preserve/article_8660bfc2-bd82-11eb-833f-c3f041de8f92.html

Alaina Gardner wrote:

I’m aware of that policy. I don’t disagree with you. What I meant was not that the Preserve be responsible for maintaining the condition of the terrain, but that they don’t go out of their way to keep secret a sudden new hazard after having been presented with one.

I’m so sorry to hear of this young man’s passing. My thoughts are with his family and friends,

What a bizarre and unjustified comment!  The Preserve has never done any such thing.  There was no "sudden new hazard" in this accident that the Preserve chose to "go out of their way" to "keep secret."  

This was very sad, but entirely pilot error.

Alaina Gardner wrote:

Why are you arguing with me? I know they haven't. That's why I "assumed" (and then got attacked for assuming) authorities would not keep it private, even though information hasn't been released to the public. As in, IF there ever was a sudden new hazard, we look out for each other and do tell one another. I wasn't blaming the Preserve for anything. I actually meant climbers in general, authorities, etc. 

Alaina, you're previous comment trends into territory that could be very problematic for climbing access. From a liability standpoint the MP (or any other land manager) is likely best served not getting into the business of calling out hazards on routes. The responses to your comment have been quite direct, but it's very likely your comment was triggering because it touched on an underlying concern that many long time climbing advocates have regarding a potential shift in mentality related to personal responsibility and risk management in the climbing space.

I think y’all are overthinking Alaina’s post. I don't read this at all as saying that the park is responsible for maintaining the route or is responsible for your safety. Only that if a known hazard that was still present and responsible for an actual accident, that the community, including that of land management, would do something and not just allow people to continue climbing unaware with a known hazard. Whether that “something” is just notifying people, temporarily closing the route, removing the hazard etc...that is definitely debatable. But the land managers have a vested interest in that process just as much as the users do. That doesn’t mean they are responsible for our safety, but it is in their’s and our  interest for all parties to proactively work together identify and act on any known hazards beyond those that are expected in everyday climbing (yes, I realize that is pretty subjective).

I’m not sure how the Preserve operates but I think it actually could be a dangerous precedent for them to start tracking hazards and informing climbers. Say they find and inform climbers of a newly found hazard, great! Another accident occurs with a hazard that was clear and obvious to whoever would climb the route but not announced by the preserve (for whatever reason). The party involved in the accident may be able to blame the preserve for not informing them of this clear and obvious hazard. Same could go for an unknown hazard. Some could say “The preserve should inspect all routes of any known hazards”. Gets out of hand quick.

Seems more of a self-responsibility and/or climbing community issue. I would think land managers might want to avoid these types of precedences.

As for information on the accident, I agree with those who call for patience. If you want to learn, go read the hundreds of AAC accidents until more information comes out on this one. No need to rush for info or assume anything.

Condolences for the deceased individual and impacted parties and families. Always sobering to hear of deaths in this sport so close to home.  

What is being discussed here has no bearing on the incident in which a climber died.  I would suggest moving discussions about the responsibility of the preserve vs. the responsibility of climbers to a different thread.  This seems like an incredibly inappropriate place to discuss an issue completely unrelated.  Someone died.  Take your "what the preserve should do to prevent an entirely different possible accident" talks somewhere else. 

I'm surprised some of the posters in here even bothered weighing in given the fact that we lost a life on Saturday (if you are a long-timer, you should all know better than to engage in side conversations in a post where a member of our community died).  Go post about reporting hazards, the responsibilities of the preserve, or your individual feelings about personal responsibility on the ever-present facebook partners group or start a thread in the NE climbers section of MP.  

I can't believe it needs to be mentioned, but this thread will be read by friends and family of the deceased. Do you really want to present yourself as a person that bickers about climbing ethics on a public forum where a family member that lost a loved one might come for more information? 

I will be deleting this comment at the end of the day because I don't see a need for this thread to have any sort of drama, shaming, or disgruntled posting. 

Not here to offend or argue.

I wish the climber’s family my deepest condolences as well as any climbing partners and other climbers present.

That being said...from mohonkpreserve.org

“What should I know before I go?

Be aware that you climb at your own risk on the Preserve, which isn’t responsible for the condition of the cliffs, climbing protection, climber behavior, or training or supervising climbs. For your safety, read the Preserve's Climbing Policy.”

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q0FmOWGy1VXNJGzS_4Wr6pZ8YW9sI-T2/view?usp=drivesdk

The MP website links to Andrew Bajardi's informative 2018 article, "The Climbing Rangers of MP," in Park Ranger.  

Andrew describes the expansive role of a MP ranger:

"Mohonk Preserve rangers are multi-faceted.
We do many things one would expect a ranger
to do. We provide information to visitors, fix
broken trail signs, cut downed trees, and patrol
the land. Thom Scheuer, a legendary Chief
Ranger from the Preserve’s early days, used to
say, “We protect the land for the people, and
from the people.” Our work takes many forms,
and the rangers provide services in many ways
not usual for rangers who work on state and
federal lands. We lead public programs, assist
with fundraising efforts, and support other
departments’ objectives on a daily basis. We do
things like implement closures guided by our
Conservation Science department, and hike with
our Land Protection department when surveying
our 250 miles of boundaries. Where we break
from the mold is in our rescue program."

Andrew's description is consistent with both Alaina's sentiment and the MP policy Andy Wiesner references. 

My deepest condolences to Mr. Çabuk's family and friends.