Cancel the grade 12a

I think everything that is currently graded 12a should be switched to 11d. Leave no climb listed as 12a. I think it would spread out the masses better if everyone was less obsessed with doing the most classic first “12.” Secondly, The grade 11d is hardly used and often harder than 12a and thus I don’t think this would make 11ds any harder. This also partially solves the issue of soft 12as.

Now you are probably thinking everyone will just start doing 12bs. That might happen if it’s too big an issue we just call them 11e.

I guess I don’t see any possible issues with this.

This is already the grading system in Index...

Why are you like this?

What are our feelings on 7a?

We should cancel 5.9+ while we're at it.

How about just +& -

Or just quit your complaining and climb.. :)

Lots of peeps need to climb and not worry about #'s

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120688337/looking-for-the-softest-12s-in-the-front-range?page=2

I guess this is evidence supporting OP...?

Charlie Swrote:

We should cancel 5.9+ while we're at it.

Everyone knows any 5.9+ is actually a 5.11a that was graded before there were grades higher than 5.9

Kauaitwrote:

How about just +& -

Or just quit your complaining and climb.. :)

Lots of peeps need to climb and not worry about #'s

I am trying but I feel like I climb plenty and I need some rest! It’s mostly I have done most 11s and kinda running low on climbs that are not constantly crowded.

Switch to 12a gear climbs, no waiting 

Cancel 5.7+. Have you ever heard someone say “I did a 5.7+” I sure haven’t 

I did a 5.7+ once. It was for sure harder than the 10c/d I did right before it. They did say I was off route but who knows???

12a is the new 5.9+

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

12a is the new 5.9+

11d is the new 5.9+, 12a is more like the new 10a, which is another sport grade that gets cursed by the crowds as people try to "break into" the next number by doing the "easiest" 5.10. 

No judgement from me, classic 12a is almost always super classic.

So would 11d get the affinity space or 12a?

Funny, in Europe the 7a routes have lines but the 7a+ routes are vacant (11d & 12a old tahquitz system). If you are solely a number chaser, you’ll eventually quit the sport. Technical climbing starts around 7c- 12d. Dale Goddard published an article in the late 80’s saying sport climbing doesn’t exist until 11a & saying Fat Albert cartoon guy will project his 11a. Low self esteem nerds like Johnny Woodward were way off base & sadly have left a mark on Joshua tree guidebooks etc. with ratings & have quit the sport. 

Jens 1wrote:

Funny, in Europe the 7a routes have lines but the 7a+ routes are vacant (11d & 12a old tahquitz system). If you are solely a number chaser, you’ll eventually quit the sport. Technical climbing starts around 7c- 12d. Dale Goddard published an article in the late 80’s saying sport climbing doesn’t exist until 11a & saying Fat Albert cartoon guy will project his 11a. Low self esteem nerds like Johnny Woodward were way off base & sadly have left a mark on Joshua tree guidebooks etc. with ratings & have quit the sport. 

I would love to see that Goddard article.
My recollection is that “sport climbing starts at 12c” but I’ve never been able to find the original quote. 

Rope climbing is just practice tho

Jens 1 wrote:

Funny, in Europe the 7a routes have lines but the 7a+ routes are vacant (11d & 12a old tahquitz system). 

Super true. Not only that, but lots of American sport crags have way more 5.12a (7a+) routes than 5.11d (7a) routes, and in France 7a's vastly outnumber 7a+'s in my limited experience. Funny how geology works like that. 

Same with 7c+, which is the coveted 5.13a benchmark that no one in Europe cares about, because 8a (5.13b) is the nice round number there.

Mark E Dixonwrote:

I would love to see that Goddard article.
My recollection is that “sport climbing starts at 12c” but I’ve never been able to find the original quote. 

I'm totally guessing, but historically the first sport climbs, which is to say bolted top-down and climbed on redpoint after hang-dogging etc. were about mid-5.12. I'm not as familiar with the European history, but in the US sport climbing was started by some strong trad climbers who were bored and wanted to try new things. Those guys were strong enough that routes hard enough that they couldn't go ground-up runout style on were at least 5.12, generally speaking (this was the age of horrifying 5.11X being put up in places like Tuolumne). Sure, they were also rap-bolting 5.10, but if we consider "sport climbing" to be about tactics and not about what the protection is, then the first sport climbers in the 80s started on mid 5.12s.

Whisk3rzz 1wrote:

12a is also not very inclusive. Definitely a grade initially put up by white men. A colonizer grade, if you will

Best MP comment in quite a while. TY