Dubbles of small cams

I have a black, blue, yellow & purple totem, i want to double up in those sizes, what should i get? Some Z4s? More totems? 

I think it is helpful to have a different model for doubles in small cams. Some will say buy triple totems. Variety is good, IMO. 

Aliens/basics are great. Z4s exist. Mastercams. 0 Friends. Etc. 

The real answer is totems.

There really is no better cam in those sizes. blue and smaller maybe look at some other micro cams (I like the wildcountry zero) but you can't go wrong with any micro cam on the market atm.

IMO doubles in small cams is just the minimum.  Depending on the route I will run quads in small cams or even more.  Ive always said you can sometimes fit a small cam in large crack but you can never fit a large cam in a small crack.  Small cams are just way more versatile and handy.  

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

IMO doubles in small cams is just the minimum.  Depending on the route I will run quads in small cams or even more.  Ive always said you can sometimes fit a small cam in large crack but you can never fit a large cam in a small crack.  Small cams are just way more versatile and handy.  

This seems like a very smart approach, thanks you!

ryan Smithwrote:

This seems like a very smart approach, thanks you!

No, it’s not. I’ve been climbing for a long time and very rarely have I ever used anything more than doubles. Double up with different cams, whatever you like. And learn how to efficiently place nuts. A set of nuts is literally half your rack. People tend to forget that. 

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

No, it’s not. I’ve been climbing for a long time and very rarely have I ever used anything more than doubles. Double up with different cams, whatever you like. And learn how to efficiently place nuts. A set of nuts is literally half your rack. People tend to forget that. 

Agree for better than 90% of the time in general. Offset nuts for the same sizes in those cams are way lighter, way cheaper,  and at least to me, give about equal safety feeling but much greater aesthetic satisfaction upon placement than a cam.  

Sure, you can just slam in a Totem and climb on, but where’s the skill in that??   Lol.  Your second is never gonna give a second thought to that Totem placement, but he/she may take just an extra second to bear witness to that perfectly slotted gold offset, and comment on it at the belay handover.  

And let’s be honest, isn’t that really why we climb trad?

Mark Pilatewrote:

Agree for better than 90% of the time in general. Offset nuts for the same sizes in those cams are way lighter, way cheaper,  and at least to me, give about equal safety feeling but much greater aesthetic satisfaction upon placement than a cam.  

Sure, you can just slam in a Totem and climb on, but where’s the skill in that??   Lol.  Your second is never gonna give a second thought to that Totem placement, but he/she may take just an extra second to bear witness to that perfectly slotted gold offset, and comment on it at the belay handover.  

And let’s be honest, isn’t that really why we climb trad?

Excellent point, i slotted a perfect gold offset yesterday at the crux of a 5.9, very proud moment in my life!

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

No, it’s not. I’ve been climbing for a long time and very rarely have I ever used anything more than doubles. Double up with different cams, whatever you like. And learn how to efficiently place nuts. A set of nuts is literally half your rack. People tend to forget that. 

I thought he was asking about cams, my bad.    I sometimes carry a small selection of off set nuts but rarely use them simply because cams are usually faster to place and easier to clean.  I too have been climbing a very long time but have a totally different point of view than you, hmm..  imagine that.   I don't like to dick around placing nuts because I generally can place a cam much faster and on most routes I don't even bother to bring nuts at all.   I do however always recommend learning nut craft for new climbers as its a skill that will always come in handy, even when placing cams.   

I would recommend doubling up with Z4s. BD offers significantly smaller cams than totem, and I find the Z4s place well and are durable. I place more stoppers than most climbers I encounter, but a good selection of small cams is invaluable in the rock I frequent. 

Depends.. aliens, tcu's, or whatever. Sometimes I'll sew it or double-up my pro for a placement and I'll want more small gear

I double up my X4s with offset X4 works awesome for the area I climb so IMO go with offset cams to double your small stuff in my experience  they place better a lot of the time.

Mark Pilatewrote:

Agree for better than 90% of the time in general. Offset nuts for the same sizes in those cams are way lighter, way cheaper,  and at least to me, give about equal safety feeling but much greater aesthetic satisfaction upon placement than a cam.  

Sure, you can just slam in a Totem and climb on, but where’s the skill in that??   Lol.  Your second is never gonna give a second thought to that Totem placement, but he/she may take just an extra second to bear witness to that perfectly slotted gold offset, and comment on it at the belay handover.  

And let’s be honest, isn’t that really why we climb trad?

Since we can't have a trad climbing thread without mentioning tricams:

Tyson Jorgensenwrote:

I double up my X4s with offset X4 works awesome for the area I climb so IMO go with offset cams to double your small stuff in my experience  they place better a lot of the time.

My thinking was to double up with some Z4s because the totems i have can essentially work as offsets, at least i think they do, my blue totems caught me on a decent fall placed in a fairly offset position. Thanks for the input!

Kevin, whats your preference for your little guys? Do you have a bunch of the same or are you mixing up all different brands?

ryan Smithwrote:

Kevin, whats your preference for your little guys? Do you have a bunch of the same or are you mixing up all different brands?

If I remember from another thread Kevin has like a triple rack of totems that he uses.

Offsets are completely obselete with totems on the market. 

Sebs right, I carry a a triple rack of yellow through black if the route calls for it.   I stopped carrying off set cams just for the reason Seb stated, 99% of the time a Totem will work just as good or better than an off set cam but also works just as good as a regular cam.  On big walls I'll supplement with off set cams just because those types of routes are so gear intensive.  

Below the black totem size I have a franked rack of Master Cams and C3's.   

Off set nuts are also a great, I don't even bother racking regular nuts anymore. 

ryan Smithwrote:

I have a black, blue, yellow & purple totem, i want to double up in those sizes, what should i get? Some Z4s? More totems? 

I routinely rack double Z4's down to 0.3, and recently added two black totems - sort of the opposite of what you are asking - and really feel a major benefit!

that guy named sebwrote:

If I remember from another thread Kevin has like a triple rack of totems that he uses.

Offsets are completely obselete with totems on the market. 

Disagree..

Really depends on where you climb..

But being an aid climber. It's our goal to find the best piece to place in each and every placement. And to say they are obsolete is being close minded.

But yes totems are fantastic..

Depends on the rock type you usually climb but I find mixing brands preferable, particularly when the crag has a lot of convoluted cracks. I like small totems but they don't necessarily fit shallower placements as well as a single axle design due to having a longer cam when in the lower end of their ranges. I usually supplement with aliens or mastercams since they share the totem benefit of narrow heads. Don't like TCUs when smaller because the U stem often blocks your view of how the cams are engaged. 

How many you need of a given size is tied to the route length and style but on many routes you have options. I sometimes will take triples of say .3-.5 when I'm anxious or anticipate backing up a critical piece as the different brands may fit differently, and that size range is light. 

Mark Pilatewrote:

Agree for better than 90% of the time in general. Offset nuts for the same sizes in those cams are way lighter, way cheaper,  and at least to me, give about equal safety feeling but much greater aesthetic satisfaction upon placement than a cam.  

Sure, you can just slam in a Totem and climb on, but where’s the skill in that??   Lol.  Your second is never gonna give a second thought to that Totem placement, but he/she may take just an extra second to bear witness to that perfectly slotted gold offset, and comment on it at the belay handover.  

And let’s be honest, isn’t that really why we climb trad?

If you're interested in trying to push grades on gear, you will NEVER be reaching for a nut when you're pumped, and there's an available cam placement of equal quality. I think most climbers would get a lot more satisfaction out of clipping the chains on a hard redpoint than clipping a nut where a cam would've worked just fine. Ask yourself if your goal as a climber is to push your limit on challenging, inspiring free pitches or to find novelty gear placements on a slabby 5.7?

Additionally, if you're trying to climb quickly and your partner has to get out the nut tool and bang at a stuck placement for a couple minutes, you will be wasting time. Period. That could mean 3 extra minutes not on a real belay while short fixing, extra pump in the second who's supposed to swing through and lead the next pitch, etc. 

Small offset nuts shine where no cams fit and also can allow you to avoid a sketchy, non-textbook 0.1-0.2 sized placement. Larger nuts (think equivalent of blue Totem and larger) are fine if you're on easy ground and you're wanting to conserve gear for the crux of a pitch, but, again, you should never find yourself trying to fiddle in a 0.5 sized nut while in the middle of a pumpy 5.11 layback. That's just bad strategy. The smarter climber will slam in a purple Totem and keep chugging.

Also, my vote is for getting the doubles in Totems. I personally wouldn't choose a definitively worse cam for the sake of varied range unless I climbed a lot of offsize desert splitters (in that case you would also need a lot more than doubles).

that guy named sebwrote:

If I remember from another thread Kevin has like a triple rack of totems that he uses.

Offsets are completely obselete with totems on the market. 

Offset cams smaller than black totem are not obselete.