Fixed Draws in the Pipedream

Allen Sandersonwrote:

And what you do when you are leading and fall off? Same thing ... (or lower to ground).

The same can be said for leading and clipping a rope to a draw.

So far you have provided nothing to support your point, that is disingenuous.  Leaving crap behind because for some it is too inconvenient to hang their gear and remove is called being lazy.

If you fall on permas and can’t get back in, you just lower. You see, there are no draws to clean with permas. It is also much easier to boink on lead than on TR, not to mention that on lead often one swings in a bit and can grab the rope before it is too late.

Anyway, fuck it. I’ve done plenty of steep routes without permas, installed permas and removed my permas, and Utah locals are welcome to do whatever they want with their crags.

Anyway, you still haven’t answered my question. Have you climbed at Pipe or other crags like it?

Allen Sandersonwrote:

And what you do when you are leading and fall off? Same thing ... (or lower to ground).

The same can be said for leading and clipping a rope to a draw.

So far you have provided nothing to support your point, that is disingenuous.  Leaving crap behind because for some it is too inconvenient to hang their gear and remove is called being lazy.

But why do you insist on defending the least defendable argument for your position?

Allen Sandersonwrote:

And what you do when you are leading and fall off? Same thing ... (or lower to ground).

The same can be said for leading and clipping a rope to a draw.

So far you have provided nothing to support your point, that is disingenuous.  Leaving crap behind because for some it is too inconvenient to hang their gear and remove is called being lazy.

Damn dude. Seems like you just want to talk to get attention? I'll answer the question for you since you just keep deflecting: no you have never climber at the pipe dream or any similar cave and don't have a clue what you're talking about. By all means keep saying ignorant things though, it's entertaining at work this morning!

Clearly clueless Smooth-Brains speaking about NO FIXED DRAWS in the pipedream. How about if you haven't climbed at Maple you keep your opinion to yourself. In many areas in the nation, I would agree with the sentiment, but at Maple the ethic is that fixed draws in the caves are okay. Maple is basically an outdoor climbing gym and a good place to push your limits. Cleaning the gigantic horizontal roof simply is not feasible/realistic.

Marc801, thanks for the info about why the perma draws were removed. Makes sense.

Reading through some profiles indicates Tom whore is a wasatch based troll - and regularly teams up with Allen. Just FYI.

Grug Mwrote:

Clearly clueless Smooth-Brains speaking about NO FIXED DRAWS in the pipedream. How about if you haven't climbed at Maple you keep your opinion to yourself. In many areas in the nation, I would agree with the sentiment, but at Maple the ethic is that fixed draws in the caves are okay. Maple is basically an outdoor climbing gym and a good place to push your limits. Cleaning the gigantic horizontal roof simply is not feasible/realistic.

Marc801, thanks for the info about why the perma draws were removed. Makes sense.

What's up with all the "smooth brain" insults lately? Honestly in the last few weeks I see everyone all of a sudden using that insult. Is it just like a playground thing that caught on and became trendy?

Anonymouswrote:

What's up with all the "smooth brain" insults lately? Honestly in the last few weeks I see everyone all of a sudden using that insult. Is it just like a playground thing that caught on and became trendy?

Do you realize your profile doesn't have a name? Probably intentional, and if so, big time troll. 

Grug Mwrote:

Do you realize your profile doesn't have a name? Probably intentional, and if so, big time troll. 

Do you realize you deflected and didn't answer a simple question? Just asking where you heard this and why everyone is saying it all of a sudden. I just want to fit in too.

Is your name Grug m or are you just trolling?

Maple is a playground for all the user groups and certainly is not the least bit wild. With families of ATV riders zooming up and down the road all day long dusting the campsites and crags nearby I'd say permadraws are more acceptable there than most crags. 

Allen Sandersonwrote:

And what you do when you are leading and fall off? Same thing ... (or lower to ground).

The same can be said for leading and clipping a rope to a draw.

So far you have provided nothing to support your point, that is disingenuous.  Leaving crap behind because for some it is too inconvenient to hang their gear and remove is called being lazy.

Have you climbed routes of this steepness and grade? If so, did whomever cleaned the route do so on TR? If not, why?

Allen, you are hereby challenged to a cleaning TR ascent of Sprout by the chufflords of mountainproject. And no, you cannot bring your ice tools.

Ahhhhhh this is the old Mountain Project I miss.

The fixed draws have been delivered to the camp host and are being re-installed by volunteers. Several routes were re-equipped on the first day so it should not take long before the vast majority of the draws are back on. 

Quickdraws are available for re-hanging from the camp host, just check-in before 9 am with Eilijah and he will set you up if you're interested in helping re-equip a route. Only a small portion of the original hardware was discarded (mostly badly chewed-up quick-links, carabiners with deep, sharp grooves and very old textile draws dating form 1998). So some are missing and will have to be replaced.

Some new hardware has generously been donated to help update the old draws, but climbers should inspect and replace anything questionable before re-installing. That being said, you should come equipped with extra SS quick-links, a wrench, extra steel carabiners and new perma-draws to update some of the still questionable "older" hardware.  This is a good opportunity to go through every fixed-draw and make sure that it will last and not damage the new wave bolts. 

And if you climb at Pipedream (or anywhere else for this matter) this summer and you don't like certain fixed-draws, you CAN buy some yourself, replace the old ones and that will make you feel good and everyone will be thankful :-)

Hope everyone enjoys the new bolts!

Thanks for the update, Alex. That’s great news. Sorry for making a big deal out of nothing. Looking forward to the new bolts and re-equipping routes if they haven’t been already. Thanks SLCA for your work. 

Thanks for the work out there, SLCA crew! Rebolting caves is a pain in the ass. Stainless links should be used on glue ins to prevent gouging out the thin ~1/4" stainless steel. Glue ins are not easily removed.

I would love to see a free, toprope ascent of any route in the Pipedream proper. Let me know so I can add it to my calendar. I will bring popcorn.

Yep @Mulch! Just like the mtnproj days of old: 

Step 1: The SLCA spent weeks of man hours working to rebolt one of the steepest crags in America. 

Step 2: ben jammin asks how he can help replace the draws by starting a thread to see how he can help. He's obviously bummed yet obviously gets that it's simply work that needs doing. He even included a link to the excellent explanation about why the SLCA couldn't replace the them. 

Step 3: Bring in Tom Hore.

• This debate is all Tom's fault, because he came in right off the bat and gave ben jammin the same good-natured shit he dishes out in person. Only this is the internet, so no one can take a joke or see that Tom gets it too. If we all had enough good nature to laugh at ourselves as much as Tom does, we'd be way better off. I dare you to look any of these people in the eye with a straight face and say any of the shit you say online directly to them.
• But alas, someone came in with comments about how hard it is to clean draws on steep routes, which is patently obvious. 
• Then JK had an even more common-sense explanation of why the SLCA couldn't replace fixed draws. 
• Then Sanderson warned us about the dangers of the very real issue of the proliferation of fixed draws. He probably brought this up because the Forest Service and other land management agencies are keeping a close eye on climbing impacts across the country and could shut this all down if they wanted. I'm guessing Sanderson isn't longing for the old days before people had to deal with the logistics of climbing such steep caves here. 
• But srsly, debating the impracticalities of cleaning draws of steep routes led to a droll back and forth between the New-Age-Cave-Men, who think everything less than 60 degrees overhung is a slab and that everyone who doesn't climb in caves are un-fit, un-talented hacks and the Ghost of 90's-Hard-Men-Past, moaning about modern crybabies who can't wipe their own butts.
• It's safe to say that no one wants to see spectra and steel hanging off every remotely climbable cave, especially non-climbers. It's also safe to say that it's a total pain in the ass to clean draws off steep routes.  
• And of course the modern-sport-heroes keep stating how obvious it is that Sanderson doesn't know crap about climbing steep routes, without realizing that even though he actually IS old as hell, he's a solid v7+ climber and often hikes the shit of said steep routes. Can't imagine him climbing in crowded, gym-like places like the Pipedream.

Fortunately, JK says something hilarious to make everyone laugh at the absurdity, Alex brings back the logistics of how you do the work of replacing the draws, ben jammin thanks him.

And we're right back where we started. 

I vote that Clay summarizes every Wasatch thread moving forward. I can't be bothered to read the entire thing.

My bad for not knowing the eclectic blend of SLC personalities as I am a lonely desert dweller.  Maybe if I was 50 and climbed more SLC slab I'd be in on the jokes.. I aspire to be a 5.13 shit talker, though, so no hard feeling on my end.  Thanks for summary, Clay, 

*Edited because Tom was feeling..

ben jamminwrote:

Maybe if I was 60 and climbed more SLC slab I'd be in on the jokes.. I aspire to be a 5.13 shit talker, 

Actually..... I believe out of the whole thread Allan is the only one over 60.  Funny how the more youthful crowd can always make fun of older people.. but use the wrong pronoun to identify someone and you get in trouble...   Personally I'm 51 on Thursday this week.... and will answer to any pronoun as long it comes with my favorite scotch.

Slab climbing blows....  However, even us non desert dwellers have benefited from some fancy footwork getting to the top of a tower now and then gained from slab climbing. Obviously Maple doesn't have this problem.  Just untied dogs....

As the scale keeps shifting... shouldn't we stop aspiring to be 5.13 shit talkers and at least shoot for 14a?  After all people over 60 were climbing the grade back in the 80s.

Sorry Clay.... I know it's all my fault.  I'm doing FCC testing at work and it's boring as hell though.

Lastly..... I'm thankful for the rebolting efforts of the SLCA and others and don't mind hanging my own draws or replacing old draws on routes as needed.

Tom Horewrote:

Actually..... I believe out of the whole thread Allan is the only one over 60. 

Nah, I think he's younger than me and I'm not 60 (yet...hopefully...!).  Also, I'm pretty sure he's put up 5.7 slab routes in Maple...

tenesmuswrote:

Yep @Mulch! Just like the mtnproj days of old: 

Step 1: The SLCA spent weeks of man hours working to rebolt one of the steepest crags in America. 

Step 2: ben jammin asks how he can help replace the draws by starting a thread to see how he can help. He's obviously bummed yet obviously gets that it's simply work that needs doing. He even included a link to the excellent explanation about why the SLCA couldn't replace the them. 

Step 3: Bring in Tom Hore.

• This debate is all Tom's fault, because he came in right off the bat and gave ben jammin the same good-natured shit he dishes out in person. Only this is the internet, so no one can take a joke or see that Tom gets it too. If we all had enough good nature to laugh at ourselves as much as Tom does, we'd be way better off. I dare you to look any of these people in the eye with a straight face and say any of the shit you say online directly to them.
• But alas, someone came in with comments about how hard it is to clean draws on steep routes, which is patently obvious. 
• Then JK had an even more common-sense explanation of why the SLCA couldn't replace fixed draws. 
• Then Sanderson warned us about the dangers of the very real issue of the proliferation of fixed draws. He probably brought this up because the Forest Service and other land management agencies are keeping a close eye on climbing impacts across the country and could shut this all down if they wanted. I'm guessing Sanderson isn't longing for the old days before people had to deal with the logistics of climbing such steep caves here. 
• But srsly, debating the impracticalities of cleaning draws of steep routes led to a droll back and forth between the New-Age-Cave-Men, who think everything less than 60 degrees overhung is a slab and that everyone who doesn't climb in caves are un-fit, un-talented hacks and the Ghost of 90's-Hard-Men-Past, moaning about modern crybabies who can't wipe their own butts.
• It's safe to say that no one wants to see spectra and steel hanging off every remotely climbable cave, especially non-climbers. It's also safe to say that it's a total pain in the ass to clean draws off steep routes.  
• And of course the modern-sport-heroes keep stating how obvious it is that Sanderson doesn't know crap about climbing steep routes, without realizing that even though he actually IS old as hell, he's a solid v7+ climber and often hikes the shit of said steep routes. Can't imagine him climbing in crowded, gym-like places like the Pipedream.

Fortunately, JK says something hilarious to make everyone laugh at the absurdity, Alex brings back the logistics of how you do the work of replacing the draws, ben jammin thanks him.

And we're right back where we started. 

You got quote the crush on Tom it seems. People can take a joke the problem was with toms delivery and that it wasn't funny.

Funny Allen seemed to disappear and not stand behind his comments as well. I'm still waiting to hear if he has ever climber pipedream...