Safety Comparison: Wire Gate Notch vs. Hooded Nose

For example, the Nano 22 and the Chimera. I know they’re both properly strength-rated and tested.

On a 1-10 scale how much safer (if at all) is the chimera?

As I was thinking about it, the chimera really does seem significantly safer because the nose prevents snagging on small wires (dangerous in a fall) and accidental gate openings by rubbing on rocks. Also, it has a much more generous rope bearing radius throughout the whole basket. Finally, DMM seems to do better testing - I can’t remember if all their biners are 3 sigma, whatever that means...

Are these considerations valid? How would you rate the 2 biners in regards to safety?

Sam Oudekerk wrote:

I know they’re both properly strength rated and tested.

On a 1-10 scale how much safer (if at all) is the chimera?

As I was thinking about it, the chimera really does seem significantly safer because the nose prevents snagging on small wires (dangerous in a fall) and accidental gate openings by rubbing on rocks. Also, it has a much more generous rope bearing radius throughout the whole basket. Finally, DMM seems to do better testing - I can’t remember if all their biners are 3 sigma, whatever that means...

Are these considerations valid? How would you rate the 2 biners in regards to safety?

They're both equally safe.  DMM just makes fancier carabiners so it's more expensive (hot forged with a snagless nose).  Every major carabiner manufacturer has to have their gear tested to a standard in terms of strength.  The other aspects you are mentioning come down to operator error and can happen to any carabiner if not used properly.  Nothing specific to the Nano 22.  If you are worried about the radius, get a larger carabiner if you are going to be falling on it a lot.

Every carabiner that is UIAA or CE rated is safe.

The open gate strength on both of those carabiners is more than you will ever put on it in a fall.

You won’t go wrong with either, but note that anything DMM is a premium product, and you’ll pay premium prices for features that may or may not be of very much use to you.

When choosing things like this, keep in mind that dudes 50 years ago were tripping on acid climbing harder than you or I ever will, and they had heavy old oval biners for everything.

They are both objectively safe.

I believe all reputable climbing companies use 3 sigma testing procedures. 3 sigma refers to the value being listed as the MBS being three standard deviations weaker than the average test value, which means that 99.85% of the carabiners will break at or above the listed MBS value.

In either case, user error not carabiner design is going to be the main cause of failure. Pick the one that’s on sale and go climbing. 

Hmm, maybe I’m just a sucker to the DMM marketing. Also, I watched the Hamish’s fall video below and thought twice about the exposed notches on my biners.

https://youtu.be/nDSg0vlDhm0

Sam Oudekerk wrote:

Hmm, maybe I’m just a sucker to the DMM marketing. Also, I watched the Hamish’s fall video below and thought twice about the exposed notches on my biners.

https://youtu.be/nDSg0vlDhm0

Sam,

Nose clipping any carabiner is a real danger, but it is in my opinion user error. If you’re really pushing your limit to the point that you can’t guarantee a good clip, then maybe a key lock or recessed notch style carabiner is a better choice. That said, I’d still argue it’s the user that’s the difference, not the carabiner.

Apples and oranges, there's 8g difference in the weight, a better comparison would be the camp dyon vs the chimera, which while 3g heavier is actually full sized and is actually 2kn stronger with an open gate.

People call DMM premium gear but it's only in build quality, their actual products are mostly average and on the heavy side. The pivot is pretty neat though.

Hmm, I think I have figured out my question: Is the hooded nose technology a gimmick, or does it actually increase safety in any way? 

Think DMM phantom (wire gate) vs. Chimera.

If a steel triple locker is a 10/10 on the security spectrum, would the phantom be a 6 and the chimera a 6.5?

J.Frost wrote:

Sam,

Nose clipping any carabiner is a real danger, but it is in my opinion user error. If you’re really pushing your limit to the point that you can’t guarantee a good clip, then maybe a key lock or recessed notch style carabiner is a better choice. That said, I’d still argue it’s the user that’s the difference, not the carabiner.

i wouldn't say it is always a user error.  there have been numerous cases over the years where slings have wiggled such that they become hung up on the nose, and then broke or unclipped the biner (multiple pieces on WFLT, criller FFA attempt, etc).  i look down a lot when i am climbing, and it is pretty often that i will notice that the rope end biner is hung up / nose hooked on the sling.  i actually fell on a route once, and as i was hanging in space i looked up and the biner was 100% cross loaded (ie laying horizontal), with the sling on the gate and the rope on the biner.  that was the "softest" batmanning i have ever done. not a nose-hooking issue exactly, but a case where the sling/biner orientation doesn't always stay as you left it.

Sam Oudekerk wrote:

Hmm, I think I have figured out my question: Is the hooded nose technology a gimmick, or does it actually increase safety in any way? 

Think DMM phantom (wire gate) vs. Chimera.

I've wondered the same thing. The people at Metolius seem to think it does, so their wiregates have a bit of a flange in front of the hook (not an actual hooded nose) that is as wide as the gate. They say this reduces the chance that rubbing on rock opens the gate. Hooded nose biners obviously do the same thing, probably more effectively.

I don't worry much about this as a real world issue, as a biner with an open gate shouldn't fail under normal circumstances (certainly could if loaded over an edge, but I wonder if a gate being open or closed makes much of a difference at that point). Nose hooks, on the other hand, are a different story, but avoidable with a habit of checking.

Edit: Maybe not avoidable, seeing slim's comment. Perhaps a good excuse to buy more gear... But seriously, how does that happen? If a standard wiregate can get nose clipped after being clipped correctly initially, what's to say a clean nose biner won't unclip entirely?

good question.  i know that i have particular biners that seem to be a magnet for the sling to get nosed up, and that i have other biners where this rarely happens (BD oz). based on that, i think the shape in the nose area can help reduce the chances.

slim wrote:

i wouldn't say it is always a user error.  there have been numerous cases over the years where slings have wiggled such that they become hung up on the nose, and then broke or unclipped the biner (multiple pieces on WFLT, criller FFA attempt, etc).  i look down a lot when i am climbing, and it is pretty often that i will notice that the rope end biner is hung up / nose hooked on the sling.  i actually fell on a route once, and as i was hanging in space i looked up and the biner was 100% cross loaded (ie laying horizontal), with the sling on the gate and the rope on the biner.  that was the "softest" batmanning i have ever done. not a nose-hooking issue exactly, but a case where the sling/biner orientation doesn't always stay as you left it.

Slim,

I was referring to nose clipping a bolt, not sling induced rotation of the carabiner such that it ends up cross loaded. I would still argue that the situation you describe has more to do with the shape of the carabiner itself than whether the nose is hooded or not. I climbed for two decades without a single hooded nose or keylock carabiner and the only times I ever had a problem associated with the nose was while clipping or unclipping a bolt. In those limited cases I fixed my mistake and continued on without incident. I feel that not paying enough attention to realize you botched a clip is not a reflection on the objective safety of the carabiner, but on the user’s attention to detail.

That said, I’m not arguing against keylock or hooded nose designs. They are nice and do translate into one less thing to worry about. If it makes the OP feel safer, then they should get them. 

ahh, ok i see what you are saying.  one situation i am always careful about is stickclipping high and/or hard to see bolts.  a notchless biner is kind of nice for this as a notched biner can get snagged on the bolt pretty easily (and i would agree to filing this under user error).