Big nuts vs equivalent sized cams

Do you folks find that cracks that take larger nuts (dmm 9-11) usually take cams in the same slot, or at least nearby? I haven't really racked them the last few seasons and besides a few missed opportunities, leaving behind the big stoppers hasn't left me unprotected at critical points. I'm wondering if it's a common to just bring extra cams in those sizes. 3-4 big nuts weigh about the same as a single #1 or 2 so it's not like the extra weight is a big deal, and at my current level of experience I make sure to bring specific pieces of gear mentioned in the guidebook. 

What got me thinking about this is how when you have a #4 or an extra 3 you tend to find placements on routes you've protected safely before without those pieces.

At any rate, just hoping to start a discussions and see what other people think, thanks!

Personally I have some larger passive pro (wild country rocks 11-14) and I use it fairly frequently. Its rare that I will go more than two climbs without placing at least one of them. With that being said I think that those placements stand out to me because I carry them on my rack. If you don't have any passive pro in that size those placements won't stand out to you. I think the same can be said for any other type of placement be it a cam, tricam, ballnut, ect. You will learn to climb with the protection you have and will not learn to climb with protection you leave behind. 

Aggresively downward-constricting placements (the kind which make totally bomber nut placements) tend to make very so-so cam placements.  The cam will walk upwards with rope movement and pop out.

I climb mostly on Tucson Mt. Lemmon granite, which often involves moving up between disjointed weaknesses with unprotectable sections between, and we almost never have continuous splitter cracks. I get a lot of use from my big nuts.

Sam Skovgaardwrote:

Aggresively downward-constricting placements (the kind which make totally bomber nut placements) tend to make very so-so cam placements.  The cam will walk upwards with rope movement and pop out.

I climb mostly on Tucson Mt. Lemmon granite, which often involves moving up between disjointed weaknesses with unprotectable sections between, and we almost never have continuous splitter cracks. I get a lot of use from my big nuts.

Well said

On long, full length pitches having full selection of cams and nuts is the way to go as one can place a cam, relax, suss out what lies ahead, if needed replace the cam with a nut so to reuse the cam higher up. That said more often than not the larger nuts are the first passive gear left behind. 

mostly use them for anchors

I use my larger bd nuts all the time both on lead and for anchors.  The bd 10-13 fit crack that work for .4-1 and its nice to have extra gear in those sizes.

Back in the old days we didn't have cams to use--only nuts and hexes. . . 

They worked well then, and still do now. . . 

I have had pretty good luck with replacing larger nuts with a few tricams.

ETA: WC Superlight offsets save quite a bit of weight in the larger sizes.

^^^

Yes, tricams. Work as nuts or as active placements. Use them at a good stance or for anchors and save the cams for other places.

Jonathan Swrote:

^^^

Yes, tricams. Work as nuts or as active placements. Use them at a good stance or for anchors and save the cams for other places.

True. But get the stiff sling evo versions and place them almost anywhere, at any stance. Just be careful not to push them in too deep when you’re sketched out in that poor stance, but thats the same for a SLCD. Tricams are super versatile. Their traditional nut positioning can work better than a regular nut in aggressively constructing cracks, while the evo orientation does a nice job fitting in more traditional nut placements. 

J.Frostwrote:

True. But get the stiff sling evo versions and place them almost anywhere, at any stance. Just be careful not to push them in too deep when you’re sketched out in that poor stance, but thats the same for a SLCD. Tricams are super versatile. Their traditional nut positioning can work better than a regular nut in aggressively constructing cracks, while the evo orientation does a nice job fitting in more traditional nut placements. 

I dont think that there is a stiff sling version of the larger sizes of tricams. They only go up to blue (2.0) that I could find which is only slightly larger than the BD 13 in passive mode. To match my WC 14 the stiff sling version would need to go up to the green (4.0) tricam. 

Levi Xwrote:

I dont think that there is a stiff sling version of the larger sizes of tricams. They only go up to blue (2.0) that I could find which is only slightly larger than the BD 13 in passive mode. To match my WC 14 the stiff sling version would need to go up to the green (4.0) tricam. 

You can always use electrical tape to stiffen up the larger ones, it would be nice to have the 3rd placement option on larger tricams if they made them though.  

Edit:  I almost always rack up to wild country 12 if not up to 14 and you definitely start to see placements for them more when they’re on your harness. 

If you’re comfortable with a sewing machine, you can also run a number of longitudinal stitch lines up and down the sling to stiffen them. I’ve done that with all mine up to size 3. The larger sizes are just easier for me to handle by grabbing the head like I would a hex.

+1 for Tricams over nuts in black, pink, red. Significant weight savings over wired nuts due to the cable. They only come out for certain rock types though

Normally, I carry nuts up to 7/8 BD and equivalent offsets. Nuts are a hassle, they slow down everything. Any time I can place a cam, I do that. Nuts basically fill in up to green C3 or black Totem size, double as bail gear and rivet/bolt hangers. 

In some rock types where the crack walls are lumpy or have weird pods instead of being splitter parallel (Tieton River in WA is an example), I often feel way more inspired by nut placements, especially large ones. Still some good cam placements out there but if the rock is less than stellar or has rough walls, or the crack flares, nuts seat well and cams might walk or break the rock around them. That said, at other crags climbing at my limit I bring nuts but usually just some small/medium and/or offset nuts and leave the bigger nuts behind, but they do feel bomber when I do use them.

Rasputin NLNwrote:

3-4 big nuts weigh about the same as a single #1 or 2 so it's not like the extra weight is a big deal, ...

3X or 4X is  significant, though I have not double checked the numbers.  Lots of ways to grok it. Hypothetically, imagine if your rack could have 3X or 4X as many pieces for the same total  weight with no significant loss in average strength.

Plus fewer trigger wires to break, a fatter wallet (dating myself?), and less integral slings to replace as they age.

Most importantly, I agree about nut placements not equaling cam placements. Learn to choose and place the type of gear best suited for the rock in front of you.

If I have the choice, I'm placing a nut every time. Much prefer to save cams for pumpy sections when fiddling with a nut isn't ideal. Plus, is there anything more satisfying than a bomber #11 DMM nut placement?