Finer points of bounce testing

So at this point I've done a number of intro lines - Glass Menagerie and Invisible Airwaves at Looking Glass, West Face Leaning Tower, South Face Washington Column, and Lurking Fear. I've also made my way up the first couple of pitches of Zodiac an embarrassing number of times before coming up with some excuse to bail. 

I want to give Zodiac another go, and try some more C3 lines, and as I'm on harder pitches I spend more time wondering "should I or should I not bounce test this piece." Conceptually, I'm trying to put things into categories of "never," "sometimes," and "always," and to develop a more nuanced approach to the "sometimes" category.

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Never

Bomber cams 

Perfect nuts

Fixed gear (not sure if this is the right approach)

Rivets

Cam hooks

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Sometimes

Micro cams (I often very gently bounce these, but am perhaps too afraid of wrecking a perfectly good body weight placement)

Offset cams in pin scars (I suspect I should do this more)

Small cams

Big cams in funky placements

Hooks

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Always

Small/micro nuts (though seems to create a headache for the follower)

Offset nuts

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Climbing C2 let me get away with stuff, but with C3 I want to make sure I'm making better choices in bounce testing stuff. I'd really like to hear the thoughts of some more experienced folks as to what you do. I'm always torn wondering if I'm going to slow and creating headaches for the follower by bouncing too much or being sketchy and bouncing too little.

https://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/testing

Of course, to read this it sounds as though I should be bouncing just about everything including fixed heads... Andy certainly knows worlds more about this than I do.

Do you have a question or are you simply thinking out loud?

Just a few comments/suggestions about bounce testing...

It depends how far are you from bomber pro, fall potential, possibility of clipping a ledge in case of a fall and your desire to move quickly. You are always trying to move up the wall as quick as possible, taking into consideration your safety and potential added time penalty in case of a fall. At times it makes sense to allow yourself to test a little more to decrease the potential cluster fuck and loss of time that will surely come in case of a fall. On Zodiac, you will want to bring multiple beaks in all 3 sizes for hand placing and I would for sure bounce test those. If I am cam jugging 2 pieces 50+ ft above other good gear, I make sure to give them a good tug, unless the placement is basically textbook and in good rock. 

When it comes to heads, you can test them for body weight by clipping it with your daisy into long sling, stepping lower into the ladder on your good piece below. Keep the daisy close to tight but not quite weighting your good piece and gently lower your body weight onto the head above. Try hanging on it with your full weight and maybe give it a small additional tug but I personally would avoid jumping on heads violently. 

SirTobyThe3rd M wrote:

Do you have a question or are you simply thinking out loud?

Just a few comments/suggestions about bounce testing...

It depends how far are you from bomber pro, fall potential, possibility of clipping a ledge in case of a fall and your desire to move quickly. You are always trying to move up the wall as quick as possible, taking into consideration your safety and potential added time penalty in case of a fall. At times it makes sense to allow yourself to test a little more to decrease the potential cluster fuck and loss of time that will surely come in case of a fall. On Zodiac, you will want to bring multiple beaks in all 3 sizes for hand placing and I would for sure bounce test those. If I am cam jugging 2 pieces 50+ ft above other good gear, I make sure to give them a good tug, unless the placement is basically textbook and in good rock. 

When it comes to heads, you can test them for body weight by clipping it with your daisy into long sling, stepping lower into the ladder on your good piece below. Keep the daisy close to tight but not quite weighting your good piece and gently lower your body weight onto the head above. Try hanging on it with your full weight and maybe give it a small additional tug but I personally would avoid jumping on heads violently. 

Thinking out loud and hoping for criticism and feedback.

And your post made me realize a specific question - do you bounce hand placed sawed angles and peckers?

Scott O wrote:

Thinking out loud and hoping for criticism and feedback.

And your post made me realize a specific question - do you bounce hand placed sawed angles and peckers?

I have discovered that if you bounce test hand placed #3 peckers hard enough, they can lock in just like you hammered them! Quasi-clean??? ;) 

Brandon Adams and Dave Allfrey, two of the fastest aid climbers I know, never bounce anything aside from maybe a couple pumps on a very questionable piece.

Me, on the other hand will bounce the shit out of most beaks and heads. I’d rather know that the thing is going to hold my bodyweight before I climb onto it and maybe try to place another questionable piece beyond. I’d rather know that the piece might hold a fall rather than be completely clueless piece after piece after piece. 

I’ll give an odd looking nut or cam a couple pumps but I don’t see any logic in bounce testing hooks.

Mark Hudon wrote:

Brandon Adams and Dave Allfrey, two of the fastest aid climbers I know, never bounce anything aside from maybe a couple pumps on a very questionable piece.

Me, on the other hand will bounce the shit out of most beaks and heads. I’d rather know that the thing is going to hold my bodyweight before I climb onto it and maybe try to place another questionable piece beyond. I’d rather know that the piece might hold a fall rather than be completely clueless piece after piece after piece. 

I’ll give an odd looking nut or cam a couple pumps but I don’t see any logic in bounce testing hooks.

In general you're bouncing the fixed gear, and just planning to remove and replace a head or fixed pin if it blows?

Generally yes. 

My longest falls were always on “textbook” cam placements. I took a 50+ on Prodigal Son (easiest aid route on Angels Landing in Zion, while motoring along perfect A1, backcleaned a few cams, and while standing on a perfect cam with anchor bolts a few feet away, waiting for a party to pull their rope while bailing it pulled and sent me. My partner I’m sure had some rope out, I was on the cam for a minute at least and it just came out. Oh well.

 I give everything a bounce, even a slight one on “perfect placements”. What does that peckerhead Pete say? Build your placements with exclamation marks not question marks.

Speed climbing is a different beast, and we used to just clip and go. Falls became normal on harder pitches because stuff pulls. I’m old now and really hate falling. I’d rather test then go. Speed comes from efficiency, not racing. The 5 seconds it takes to give a slight bounce is a no brainer, the 45 minute change over, the 24 minute to build an anchor, and the 13 minute whack off session could take a backseat so you can get to the top a few days earlier.

Also place a piece, test it, then charge up to your 3rd steps without stopping. Fifi in then look for placements. This literally saves hours a pitch. So many people use the adjustable daisy every inch of moving upward. 

"Also place a piece, test it, then charge up to your 3rd steps without stopping. Fifi in then look for placements. This literally saves hours a pitch. So many people use the adjustable daisy every inch of moving upward."

This is excellent advise, once you test and commit to the piece, truly commit, get going and don't think about the next one till you are as high as comfortable (I go 2nd step minimum, but I'm short).

When Max and I did Reticent, our motto was “make your best placement, bounce the hell out of it, get on it, forget about it and repeat”.

And to Kurt’s point, yeah, get up those steps! Don’t be fiddle fucking around!

Easy there Mark!  I do bounce test a fair amount but i do it quick, hit hit hit, get on it.

I’m watching the piece, the loves, the rock, everything, listening to it and if there is no movement, shift, crumble, get on it and go.

If you’re climbing hard aid, a bounce test might save your life, so probably you should have a well perfected bounce figured out.

I bounce fast on decent gear from the legs, then transition my weight and get on it.

I bounce hard from the waist. Harder the climbing, more important the bounce and more likely you’ll see me hitting from the waist.

Cheers.

One thing I do before bouncing is place my hand over the piece. If its good I continue to hold my hand over the placement while I move up till my face is out of the danger zone. This prevents losing a tooth or injuring an eye If it does blow.

david allfrey wrote:

I bounce fast on decent gear from the legs, then transition my weight and get on it.

I bounce hard from the waist. Harder the climbing, more important the bounce and more likely you’ll see me hitting from the waist.

Cheers.

This is what I do

Hahaha! Yep. I definitely bounce at times too. 

Don't have a death wish.

Of course don't bounce everything, especially if it's obviously bomber or would be a drag to replace (and it would have held body weight anyways).

My equation has more to do with the consequence of piece failure.  If I'll hit a ledge 40 feet down, damn sure I'll bounce the bejeesus out of it. If I'm on the Shield headwall and a fall wouldn't even hardly slow me down, why bounce?

Just bounce like you mean it and don't shoosh around. If it holds get on the sucker and keep moving.

Always hate when it looks like shit and holds test....

Oh, and I definitely prefer daisy bouncing to step testing. Totally down to preference, but I think it's quicker and more effective.

I can only speak about easy routes. 

I was soloing zodiac once and when I was down was talking to Andy K over a mug of tea. I was quite excited as I'd taken my first aid fall (reasonable looking cam in a horizontal on first pitchl) and I felt like a hero. Basicly thinking like a sports climber, if you aren't falling, you aren't trying. Andy told me off saying the sign of a good aid climber was that they try not to fall by engineering themselves up the rock. If you fall because you failed to test, you are being a bit silly, especially as a beginner like me. I now test a lot more. It only takes 3 seconds. So 2 min per pitch? 

> Build your placements with exclamation marks not question marks.

I'm stealing that. Thanks 

• I don't test solid nuts if I would be happy to rap off just that one piece. I just yank and jiggle a bit on heads, as I read something somewhere that said  don't over test. But it would take me a long time to replace a head and I've only stood on heads above a safe ish fall. Mark's stuff is a different game I expect