Why aren’t there bolted rap anchors off prusik?

John Tuttlewrote:

No dude, if anything its because like minded conservationists (like virtually all of us in this thread afaik) spend hours back biting and chest thumping to see who is the purest when real issues like the climate change being accelerated by our cars is out of control.

Environmental degradation on a Planetary Scale is the problem, not thimblefuls of rock dust being removed for bolts to improve safety and reduce visual blight in the Enchantments that a handful of humans will ever see.

Yet many in this thread seem to think its the end of the world as we know it.

REAL ISSUES: CARS, DEFORESTATION, WATER and AIR QUALITY.

Not bolts where they are justifiably reasonable to place to improve safety.

Yes but this is a climbing forum, not a climate, water, air etc forum. The subject is unnecessary bolts, not how much Co2 our cars emit. Nice try though!

M Mwrote:

Yes but this is a climbing forum, not a climate, water, air etc forum. The subject is unnecessary bolts, not how much Co2 our cars emit. Nice try though!

You have to read his comment in the context of the comment he was replying to.

I don’t agree with bolts as a way to make it safer. That’s just dumbing down climbing. I agree that people should be self reliant when taking on an alpine objective, even a trade route in the Enchantments.
I took the OP as asking whether bolts in a wilderness area are really worse for the environment than a bunch of tat. Unfortunately people are not always taking and replacing tat as they climb. There’s an example of this in the Marblemount Ranger station, so it’s not a new phenomenon but I would imagine it’s being exacerbated with the hordes of people going into the alpine, so I think this is a legitimate conversation. To say it’s a wilderness area, work forward is being naive and not thinking very hard about the issue at hand here.

Obviously the only solution is to permanently close and slash #7601. 

Allen Sandersonwrote:

In the big scheme of things tat and/or bolts are minor. For many years there has been the saying "Think globally, act locally."  So this is a "local" discussion that could lead to more global discussions as it pertains to preserving climbing in other areas.

Except in this case they are not improving safety they are about convenience. The convenience of not having to carry additional slings to replace old ones. 

Yes, they're about convenience because we have 14 teams in a day on the same rap route whereas 20 years ago it was lucky to see 14 teams a month.  Bolt's are a practical necessity that don't detract from any persons wilderness experience in any way shape or form.  

B Pwrote:

You have to read his comment in the context of the comment he was replying to.

I don’t agree with bolts as a way to make it safer. That’s just dumbing down climbing. I agree that people should be self reliant when taking on an alpine objective, even a trade route in the Enchantments.
I took the OP as asking whether bolts in a wilderness area are really worse for the environment than a bunch of tat. Unfortunately people are not always taking and replacing tat as they climb. There’s an example of this in the Marblemount Ranger station, so it’s not a new phenomenon but I would imagine it’s being exacerbated with the hordes of people going into the alpine, so I think this is a legitimate conversation. To say it’s a wilderness area, work forward is being naive and not thinking very hard about the issue at hand here.

In the grand scheme of all things that are messed up in the world a few bolts are really no big deal is his point and I can agree with that usually but in some areas and on some routes its best to not open it up to more climbers. Bolted anchors always bring more climbers.

Anyone? Chain? Give me your pros and cons. Tell me about your opinions ethics

I dont mind hoofin 45lbs of 3/8” ss up there and swapping out the tat stations. 

Someone besides B P yell at me, come on!

Smith Rockwrote:

Yes, they're about convenience because we have 14 teams in a day on the same rap route whereas 20 years ago it was lucky to see 14 teams a month.

Specious reasoning. A rap anchor made of slings can handle just as many parties a day as a rap anchor made of bolts. In fact some might argue that a sling anchor would be better because it is easier for multiple parties to clip into rather than two bolts.

As said, adding bolts does not increase safety.  The only convenience bolts provide is that a party may not need to replace previously left behind slings.

  Bolt's are a practical necessity that don't detract from any persons wilderness experience in any way shape or form.  

That is your viewpoint, one of many which agree and disagree.

Parker Kempfwrote:

Anyone? Chain? Give me your pros and cons. Tell me about your opinions ethics

I dont mind hoofin 45lbs of 3/8” ss up there and swapping out the tat stations. 

Someone besides B P yell at me, come on!

Shut the f#$@ up Parker!!  just kidding :)

Parker Kempfwrote:

Anyone? Chain? Give me your pros and cons. Tell me about your opinions ethics

I dont mind hoofin 45lbs of 3/8” ss up there and swapping out the tat stations. 

Someone besides B P yell at me, come on!

SS Chain might be an excellent solution. In rare cases I have also seen cable used as it can be readily cut to size and replaced over time. It would be important for the wear point (ie rap ring) to be easily replaceable.

Chains are far harder to trim (need a serious and heavy bolt cutter) and may not allow inspection of hidden links before use over time. These hidden links might be the most prone to rust etc.

But I would generally greatly prefer chain over tat.

Ok 1 pro bolt

So I will cancel each others vote and say if you don't need bolts... don't

now were making some progress

Mike Preisswrote:

now were making some progress

Are.....we......though.

Removable bolts! 

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

Are.....we......though.

Not really

Here's a photo of the rap tat I cleaned off Illumination Rock (Mt. Hood) a few seasons ago, when I replaced all of the rap anchors with new cord:

If you want to justify rap tat due to some old-school ethics, or because it makes you feel like a superior 5.7 trad dad, that's fine.

If you are arguing that all this plastic is somehow "leave no trace," you've lost your mind.  Look at that pile of garbage!  If anyone left that next to any popular trail or at the base of a route, we'd all agree that it's horrendous litter.  If it's hanging high up on a face, it's still litter.

We're never going to come to a reasonable agreement on these sorts of things as a community if we're making arguments from unreasonable positions.

Kyle Tarrywrote:

Here's a photo of the rap tat I cleaned off Illumination Rock (Mt. Hood) a few seasons ago, when I replaced all of the rap anchors with new cord:

If you want to justify rap tat due to some old-school ethics, or because it makes you feel like a superior 5.7 trad dad, that's fine.

If you are arguing that all this plastic is somehow "leave no trace," you've lost your mind.  Look at that pile of garbage!  If anyone left that next to any popular trail or at the base of a route, we'd all agree that it's horrendous litter.  If it's hanging high up on a face, it's still litter.

We're never going to come to a reasonable agreement on these sorts of things as a community if we're making arguments from unreasonable positions.

Well thanks for cleaning it up and removing it but bolts will also have some tat attached but it will be connected to a permanent anchor! (which is not even needed) hence is best to only add bolts if necessary and in the prusik peak conversation they've never been necessary.  Not sure why would matter on what grade route you do on Prusik? Oh only old people care about how bolts are used in the alpine environment, hence the 5.7.  not sure If that's true either but are you saying the leave no trace ethic is not a goal climber's should try to adhere to? obviously you can't leave zero trace but it's just a goal many climber try to adhere too. I personally don't see much hope coming to any sort of agreement with the newer gym generation climbers who grew up on bolts. Bolts are supposed to be on most climbs and descents, It's the only reasonable solution!! The only ones that can and might stop them is the authorities and I think we can agree nobody wants that.

Mike Preisswrote:

Well thanks for cleaning it up and removing it but bolts will also have some tat attached but it will be connected to a permanent anchor! (which is not even needed) hence is best to only add bolts if necessary and in the prusik peak conversation they've never been necessary.  Not sure why would matter on what grade route you do on Prusik? Oh only old people care about how bolts are used in the alpine environment, hence the 5.7.  not sure If that's true either but are you saying the leave no trace ethic is not a goal climber's should try to adhere to? obviously you can't leave zero trace but it's just a goal many climber try to adhere too. I personally don't see much hope coming to any sort of agreement with the newer gym generation climbers who grew up on bolts. Bolts are supposed to be on most climbs and descents, It's the only reasonable solution!! The only ones that can and might stop them is the authorities and I think we can agree nobody wants that.

Here are examples of modern bolted Rap Anchors:

Maybe you can show me this "tat" you speak of on these anchors?

And when you compare these to that pile of garbage Kyle did a great job of removing?

Those SS glue-ins are probably good for 100 years with the parts that get rope worn easily replaceable.

Your thoughts?

See the thing is, hillbilly, however much rap anchor porn you have on your hard drive, you aren't going up there with a drill and bolt kit to do it. Nope, just 'oh yeah, we need bolts. SOMEONE better go do it.' So your comments are worse than useless.

Anyway as to impact, neither bolts nor tat, once theyre up there, have really any impact that's noticeable to anyone but a few climbers. So that's a dumb argument comparison. The only impact to be considered is the impact of placing it there, which is obviously much bigger in the case of bolts. Maybe that should be what we think about in terms of protecting wilderness; is it really protecting wilderness if we drag up a bunch of machinery and tools to mess around, or just carry a sling in case it needs replacing?

Obviously, I would rather clip a bolt than a sling, but I have no intention of putting any bolts there, so I won't argue for that.

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

So your comments are worse than useless.

As someone who's never climbed in the Enchantments or done any significant alpine routes, you might consider toning down the rhetoric...

shan't

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

See the thing is, hillbilly, however much rap anchor porn you have on your hard drive, you aren't going up there with a drill and bolt kit to do it. Nope, just 'oh yeah, we need bolts. SOMEONE better go do it.' So your comments are worse than useless.

Anyway as to impact, neither bolts nor tat, once theyre up there, have really any impact that's noticeable to anyone but a few climbers. So that's a dumb argument comparison. The only impact to be considered is the impact of placing it there, which is obviously much bigger in the case of bolts. Maybe that should be what we think about in terms of protecting wilderness; is it really protecting wilderness if we drag up a bunch of machinery and tools to mess around, or just carry a sling in case it needs replacing?

Obviously, I would rather clip a bolt than a sling, but I have no intention of putting any bolts there, so I won't argue for that.

How the hell do you know what I may or may not do? I replace anchors locally (Yosemite, Tahoe etc) for the ASCA and have hand-drilled 1/2" replacement anchors as needed. If I ever was up there I would either hand drill or take a small Bosch that fits in a bullet day pack and weighs about 6#. No big whoop-ti-doo.

Regardless, what I may or may not do is irrelevant. This thread is a community discussion worth airing and participating in, imo, because similar situations exist all over the place. 

Something clean and far longer lasting is better and safer than tat. Better is better. The "impact" of bolted rap anchors is non-existent when the rap point is an established descent with existing fixed (something) anchors. Those are my points.

But "leaver" slings are still part of my kit off the beaten path. Its part of climbing, I more than get that. But Prussik Peak seems like no hill to die on based on outdated concerns.