Picks on Black Diamond Cobras loosening/rotating while climbing

EDIT: it seems like this is a major current issue with new BD hot forged picks. Many are defective. See mike bauman's post quoted by Andrei on page 2 for more detailed info. Contact BD's warranty service if you have defective picks, and if you have new BD picks make sure to check them.

Old post:

The other day I noticed while climbing that the picks on my cobras had loosened a bit, and I could rotate them up and down with respect to the tool by hand. Determined to not let that happen again, I made sure to crank down on both bolts on the head real hard and tighten them as much as I could before the next time I went ice climbing. Still, after 2 pitches the next time I climbed on them, I noticed the picks had loosened themselves again! This was really annoying to find out while on the lead.

Has anyone else had this problem? Is there anything I can do to keep the picks from loosening on the tool besides cranking down on the bolts even harder?

Check for deformation of the slot in the pick, or - much more trouble$ome - the spline in the tool head that goes into said slot.

Did they not move at home after you tightened them? Try some blue Loctite? 

try any other ice tool than BD ;) 

Never had an issue like that with cobras. Maybe you need to go to the weight room??

 I got soured on BD tools when 4 picks broke on my silver vipers in two years and BD customer service  told me I didn't know how to ice climb.   In 39 years of ice climbing I have broken those  4 BD picks and one humming bird pick..   Heck even  Conrad had one break @ the Daks ice fest and had to Bum a spare from the mountaineer..  Maybe  Conrad dosen't know how to ice climb either.. 

Gunkiemikewrote:

Check for deformation of the slot in the pick, or - much more trouble$ome - the spline in the tool head that goes into said slot.

I just took both tools apart and did not notice any deformation in the pick slots or the splines.

jdejacewrote:

Did they not move at home after you tightened them? Try some blue Loctite? 

When I tightened them at home they did not move at all. But a pitch of ice climbing was sufficient to loosen them. I feel like I shouldn't have to resort to loctite because that would make it difficult to replace the picks.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

try any other ice tool than BD ;) 

I'm thinking that might be my solution...

Never had any problems when I used Cobras or Rages.  Love my Vipers. . . 

Alex Fischerwrote:

I just took both tools apart and did not notice any deformation in the pick slots or the splines.

When I tightened them at home they did not move at all. But a pitch of ice climbing was sufficient to loosen them. I feel like I shouldn't have to resort to loctite because that would make it difficult to replace the picks.

I'm thinking that might be my solution...

Well, I don't have BD Cobras but blue Loctite doesn't make it particularly difficult to loosen a bolt with the correct tools. Certainly not more than torquing the s*** out of it. I put it on pretty much every part of my ice tools and crampons. On the little bolts (eg pick weights) I put it on specifically because I was tired of stripping them trying to torque them enough to stay put. Just snug + Loctite doesn't go anywhere and still unscrews easily when I want it to. 

You can get new tools, there are certainly some sexy ones out there, but they might loosen too. Handle on my new X Dreams developed some wiggle this season on their 2nd day out. They've been fine since with some Loctite. 

I have both old style and new style Cobras.  Use them about 35% of the time.  Never had your issue, but Generally prefer Nomics for most ice.   I’d try the following in order (many of which has already been suggested....or you may have tried)

1.  Was there any chance when you had them apart, you swapped pieces to the other axe? Sometimes they may take a “set” and a particular combo of parts work better together.  If not, maybe try swapping..

2.  When you do your tightening, do it when the tools have gotten to temp equilibrium at the cold temps.  Don’t do it in your warm house.  Ideally torque to 53 N•m (39 lb•ft)

3. When semi-loose, place the pick in its most “upward” position of play, then tighten fully as per 2.   

4.  Use Loctite per others.

5.  Practice good “cleaning” technique.  If you have to wrestle the tool out, you’re doing it wrong.

6.  If your axes are over three years old, replace per mfrs recommendations as stated in the Manual.  Unless you’re (heaven forbid) one of those maniacs who continues to climb on gear past the recommended lifespan date from the manufacturer!  Lol. 

Loctite. My BD tools even had it on the bolts when brand new. 

 The three year rule on ice tools and crampons is pretty reasonable for modern tools if you lead at or near your limit or do any soloing.  If you are useing them lightly and or don't climb a bunch of days or anything so difficult for you that you are gaurenteed to not fall and be able to get a screw in  if a tool or crampon breaks  then you are good for quite a bit longer..   INMOP YMMV  PS I use super glue and no problems getting it apart. Nothing against locktite. just don't have any at the moment... 

Have been using my cobras for 10 plus seasons maybe 17 times per year and have never had any problem. Have changed/replaced picks periodically 

Ice gear lifespan is an interesting topic. I should clearly read the manuals more carefully. 

BD Cobra manual says "Under  normal  use  (20  to  50  days  per  year),  the  lifespan  of  a  Type 1 B ice axe is 5 years, a Type 2  ice axe is 3 years and a replaceable pick on a Type 2  ice axe is 1 year."

Petzl Nomic and Dart manuals say there's a 3 year guarantee against material or manufacturing defect but lifespan is "unlimited." 

X-Dream and Blade Runner manuals say same thing as Petzl.

With the tools getting cold the metal can shrink a thousandth or 2. Put them in the freezer for a hr then tq.   I freeze bearing races all the time for car parts. 

Standard metallurgy as well, cold contracts heat expands. 

  My friend Alden had the head pop right off his Grivel machine while leading WI6 in the Canadian rockies. He solos a lot and replaces his tools every 3 years. he is also a Mammute, Cassine,Camp ambassador so replaceing gear is easy for him. I have broken Grivel, CM, BD and foot fang crampons. All while leading or soloing.   I rotate 3 pairs of crampons  depending on conditions and objective and replace them when they start looking worn. I no longer replace the front points. If they are dull then the secondary points are also dull and its a good indication that the whole rig has seen enough use that something could break . 

Alex Fischerwrote:

I feel like I shouldn't have to resort to loctite because that would make it difficult to replace the picks.

The whole point of Loctite is to fix a thread in place while still being able to remove it easily. 

Alex Fischerwrote:

I just took both tools apart and did not notice any deformation in the pick slots or the splines.

When I tightened them at home they did not move at all. But a pitch of ice climbing was sufficient to loosen them. I feel like I shouldn't have to resort to loctite because that would make it difficult to replace the picks.

So it's possible that the pick is machined badly. The groove might be too deep or the back face may be the wrong distance from the hole.
To check this switch the picks from one tool to the other and mark the tool. You'll see if the pick is the problem or the tool.

I have Cobras and the pick did loosen on me when I used the wrench BD provided. Either use a real wrench or tap the BD one a couple of times with the other tool.
I've never had to use Loctite, which can make it just hard enough to remove the bolts to strip them, especially the Petzl shallow socket bolts.

Victor Machtelwrote:

The whole point of BLUE Loctite is to fix a thread in place while still being able to remove it easily. 

Fixed that for ya.

rocknice2wrote:

So it's possible that the pick is machined badly. The groove might be too deep or the back face may be the wrong distance from the hole.
To check this switch the picks from one tool to the other and mark the tool. You'll see if the pick is the problem or the tool.

I have Cobras and the pick did loosen on me when I used the wrench BD provided. Either use a real wrench or tap the BD one a couple of times with the other tool.
I've never had to use Loctite, which can make it just hard enough to remove the bolts to strip them, especially the Petzl shallow socket bolts.

This. I just noticed the same thing on one of my Fuels. Never did this before, and just started after recently changing picks. I changed back, and it doesn’t do it anymore. So I think there is perhaps a batch of picks out there that’s slightly off. The other pick didnt do this, as I bought a pair of Natural Ice at the same time. 

I climbed lots of pitches with my first gen cobras. I always tightened the picks so that I could loosen them will a spare. Never had trouble with them getting loose on their own. BD prolly got a cheaper supplier for that batch of picks