1/4" quick-links. Am I going to die?

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

I clean aid down 90+% of all the steep routes I bolt, but occasionally I have to use a couple of 3/8 x 4" Titen HD bolts with a shitty old hanger to get myself into position. These bolts are less than a dollar and are super easy to install and remove. You can literally unscrew them while youre hanging off them and then go for a swing when they pull. There's no excuse to not be using glue ins the first time around any more.

We use this tech too, but typically only drill a hole just long enough to get the bolt to hold, clip into it and then use that to place the actual bolt. It's akin to shitty gear placement. Placing glue-ins while new routing roofs seems... difficult. We're not all in the Red, so what you're describing would be essentially drilling an extra set of holes to use the screw in bolts to aid of off, which seems like a good reason to avoid it. 

Generally the aid pieces I've gotten are either not very good or not super convenient, just good enough to get the bolt in. Lots of flared out, shallow horizontals on the last thing I bolted, for instance. Much easier to place wedges and then, yes, rebolt with glue ins if necessary.

I am not opposed to work bolts. i use cheap plated  wedge bolts, over drill the holes and then  pound them in when done. cover with epoxy.   removable bolts also work but the one I have is a different diamater thn the glue in holes so no so convenient.  I have even placed glue in's on lead. super inconvenient. one bolt per session which is waste of the nozzle. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

talking about the link being stronger than your rope.   I don't break the rope over the radius of the link as that radius is less than a caribiner but I have the link in the system. clip a biner to the link. rope runs through the biner and I break the rope with a dump truck. works every time. …   Yes Mark you are missing something. If the quick link is STRONGER than your CLIMBING ROPE  by default it is strong enough to use in a perma draw

Except the load on a lead bolt/quickdraw can be up to about 1.7 times load on the rope.

The quickdraw is loaded by  1) the rope going to Falling climber  and  2) rope to belayer braking, which can be typically 70% of the climber end due to friction.

Tom. that is another good reason to go with a minimum of 7/16ths or 8mm links.    I would not be comfortable with 1/4" /6mm links  but am aware that they can be stronger than climbing rope.  7/16th and 8mm are pretty truck but nothing wrong with going for more beef. 

Way to be a dick Montoya. 

@Nick 

Ironically, Climb Tech 1/2" RB's don't work for my glue in method. The holes end up being unusable until after I'm finished with everything anyways, so I just use the Titen bolts.  ....Montoya.... he's on the list.

@Alexander

Yeah, KY sandstone usually provides a clean way down with all the random little holes and cracks. It's not always easy, but if you get creative, you can put pieces in 10+' away from the line that lets you get in a temporary hook placement so you can get back to your spot quickly when youre gluing. Something that helps is ticking the spots for your hook so you know which feature to throw it in when you're rushing to get back into that position. Sometimes you even get to do a little "climbing"! Ive also spent over an hour working in a ball nut, just so I didnt need the Titen, if that shows the length I'll go to to avoid a temp bolt. Also, another trick ive used some, is tying off the other end of my rope to a piece, or even a tree, and then using a second grigri to pull myself in to an otherwise "unprotectable" area. I needed to do this on a very featureless slab that traversed a ton. It's odd, but it works. Stole that from a buddy of mine.

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Yeah I’m a large fan of the double rope system all the time. Need to get a little to the left clove it/belay/Prussik to yourself. Can’t see your anchor anymore and the rock is sharp, you got a back up. Bunch of extra gear on the ground attach it to the second rope. Your buddy helping you develop pull yourself over to them to trash talk their ideas.

Montoya seems to hate developing because how dare someone talk about their personal experience in a bolting thread!

I have actually never used my removeable bolt. just had it on rumor that it works..  

5/16'', should be the minimum standard for anything short of an alpine bail link. I've seen plenty of 3/8th quicklinks attaching permas where the link was nearly worn through where it meets the hanger, on high traffic routes. Given you don't expect much traffic the 5/16" ought to last awhile. The ql gauging happens far more quickly with plated qls than SS. 

Jaggers - please discontinue using 1/4'' hardware on routes in the Red and fix any routes you've done this to on publicly accessible land. 

DrRockso RRGwrote:

5/16'', should be the minimum standard for anything short of an alpine bail link. I've seen plenty of 3/8th quicklinks attaching permas where the link was nearly worn through where it meets the hanger, on high traffic routes. Given you don't expect much traffic the 5/16" ought to last awhile. The ql gauging happens far more quickly with plated qls than SS. 

Jaggers - please discontinue using 1/4'' hardware on routes in the Red and fix any routes you've done this to on publicly accessible land. 

Man i know there is history here but atno time did Jaggers suggest useof a 1/4 inch for anything other than a work bolt

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I have actually never used my removeable bolt. just had it on rumor that it works..  

They work, just dont put them in too deep or you'll be drilling them out to get them back.

Yes, you are going to die.

You experts know that a lot of glue in bolts are 6mm stock right?  https://team-tough.com/6mm-x-100mm-twist-bolt. So we can make bolts with 1/4” stock but a 1/4” quick link on a back country route is going to kill an entire state of rock climbers?

I don't like the 6mm stock glue ins. team Tough and Jim Titt make 8mm glue ins. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I don't like the 6mm stock glue ins. team Tough and Jim Titt make 8mm glue ins. 

Wear issues aside, wasn't there a previous discussion about the 6mm version actually being stronger?

Kevin Strickerwrote:

You experts know that a lot of glue in bolts are 6mm stock right?  https://team-tough.com/6mm-x-100mm-twist-bolt. So we can make bolts with 1/4” stock but a 1/4” quick link on a back country route is going to kill an entire state of rock climbers?

You are correct that 6mm twist bolts are unquestionably bomber, Jim can explain why better than I can. The issue with a 6mm or 1/4” link is that there is no room for wear when paired with a traditional hanger. Everyone on this forum can agree that plated steel links develop pretty serious groves when used to attach perma-draws. I’ve used rated 6mm links for perma-draws, but only on glueins where there is no sharp edge to cause grooves, and 5 years later they are holding up well. That being said, 8mm or 5/16” links are probably the minimum that should be used for perma-draws fixed to plate hangers.

Kevin Strickerwrote:

You experts know that a lot of glue in bolts are 6mm stock right?  https://team-tough.com/6mm-x-100mm-twist-bolt. So we can make bolts with 1/4” stock but a 1/4” quick link on a back country route is going to kill an entire state of rock climbers?

6mm twist bolts have a breaking strength of over 40kn/8000lbs, while many 1/4" quicklinks have a breaking strength of less than half that. You are comparing apples and oranges, one relies on the ultimate tensile strength of the rod stock, as long as the epoxy holds, while the other relies on the strength of the threads on the quicklink and after those fail, only needs to be bent open for a complete failure. I'm not sure where anyone mentioned killing an entire state of climbers. 

Unsure what gear jaggers is using,  camp does not manufacture 1/4'' SS qls or any non metric sized gear that I'm aware of.

Maintaining a minimum standard for hardware on publicly accessible land is important, most that climb in my area would agree. People can do whatever want on their own property, if they want to save 50 cents by using a 1/4''  quicklink have at it. 

Timothy fisher wrote: Man i know there is history here but atno time did Jaggers suggest useof a 1/4 inch for anything other than a work bolt

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Camp sells a 25kn rated 1/4" quicklink that I use on one of the two anchor points TOP quicklink, in a two QL setup, but I'd never consider it for a perma.

Sorry DrRockso, I scolded you for doing what I did . Miss-stated someones elses post.

PWZwrote:

Wear issues aside, wasn't there a previous discussion about the 6mm version actually being stronger?

I think that discussion was comparing 6mm twist bolts to the 10mm single leg bolts. The 8mm (16mm OD) twist bolts are super beefy. I didn’t go pull numbers but I assume these are stronger than the 6mm twist and the 10mm or 12mm single leg.

8mm twist  is the shizzl  :)