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1/4" quick-links. Am I going to die?

Brian in SLC · · Sandy, UT · Joined Oct 2003 · Points: 22,793
Delaney Bray-Stone wrote:

I see the case against it for QLs, if allowed to rust to a point where they can't be wrenched open. For the chain though? Who cares? Easily replaceable in 10-20 years when it is rusted. Even then, many plated chains of that age around here are still fine. A foot of chain is like $3-4 for plated and $20 for SS.

Easy to replace...not as easy to find folks to actually do it.  And, its a burden for someone to do.  You going to be around to do it in 10 to 20 years?  Doubtful.

We care because we're climbers who use fixed anchors.  And, its typically a shared resource.

You're in Ontario?  Where the average humidity is...70% or more?  In the interior of the west, we're around 4 times lower...and...we're still trying to encourage folks to use stainless.

Believe me...10 to 20 years goes by in a blink of an eye...

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Brian in SLC wrote:

Believe me...10 to 20 years goes by in a blink of an eye...

Truth. I moved here from Connecticut in 2000. It still seems like that was only 5 or 6 years ago.

Princess Puppy Lovr · · Rent-n, WA · Joined Jun 2018 · Points: 1,756
rocknice2 wrote:

Don't use zinc plated hardware either.

I don't agree or disagree with this but I am under the impression most perma draws use zinc plated steel quick links for attaching to bolts. I was looking for permas awhile ago and I couldn't find any without plated steel quick links maybe these are all for gym applications but they are then missclassifed on their relative website I would be happy for a link to non plated steel permas.

climbtech

fixe

fixe2

climbtech

Galvanic corrosion is mostly an issue in places you can't see, I have no issue with a zinc chain that is attached to stainless quick link, bolt hanger and bolt since you can see the corrosion. I have been entertaining making permadraws out of this chain  and havent really come up with a reason not to. Also there are some commenters saying just disasmble a quick draw and use those carabiners on chain. This is fine for anchors but not permas. If you attach a normal carabiner to a chain it can rotate onto the gate and explode in a fall, so zip tie or jb weld (people will be pissed if you do this for some reason) them so they can't move if that is your approach. Fixed pin carabiners are hard to come by.

Edit: Maybe someone can correct me, but also worth mentioning is the cable in a perma draw is galvanized since it contracts and expands it would be rubbing off its own galvanization.

Adam Wood · · seattle · Joined Jun 2017 · Points: 1,453

Zinc plated metals tend to bleach out the rock in streaks. This seems to be more of issues in certain rock types or where you get a lot of rain. Lots of threads on the subject. 

M M · · Maine · Joined Oct 2020 · Points: 2

I'd whip on two of them but wouldnt be too proud about it

Delaney Bray-Stone · · Kimberley, BC · Joined Aug 2018 · Points: 122

Interesting that the prefabricated perma-draws all use zinc QLs. Out of curiosity, I reached out to more developers from my area since my last posts here. They all advised that zinc-plated QLs can be undone without too much hassle using a wrench even when rusted and so are an acceptable choice due to cost savings.

Perhaps there is a difference between using plated steel QLs for a perma vs for a bail biner that is being confounded by some on these forums? As a bail biner, it is shitty because the leader can't unscrew it by hand and also does not have a wrench, and so the best he/she can do is clip underneath the QL if there is room to do so. In the case of a perma-draw, it's arguably not an issue because the leader is not trying to clip a draw into the hanger; the only reason to remove it would be for route maintenance at which point you would have a wrench with you. Does this not make sense?

Delaney Bray-Stone · · Kimberley, BC · Joined Aug 2018 · Points: 122
Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Maybe someone can correct me, but also worth mentioning is the cable in a perma draw is galvanized since it contracts and expands it would be rubbing off its own galvanization.

Also interesting. If true, that seems like it could be sketchy at an infrequently climbed crag... those cables can't be easily inspected where the plastic covers the cable.

Trevor Taylor · · Seattle, WA · Joined Nov 2020 · Points: 0
Delaney Bray-Stone wrote:

Also interesting. If true, that seems like it could be sketchy at an infrequently climbed crag... those cables can't be easily inspected where the plastic covers the cable.

Yeah I have always wondered what the life expectancy of a cable perma should be. The water would also be trapped between the cable and the rubber. I would guess that this isn’t often an actual issue until the bolts themselves need to be replaced. When your bolting keep in mind what needs to be permad, what could be, and what is fine without since you often get an extra foot with a perma especially down low to beat rope drag. The advantage of using chain is every perma can be a custom length and your using better materials than you would get with a premade perma however you might damage rock. I prefer chain permas since cable permas are so flimsy and can unclip themselves. It’s also easier for people to aid on chain permas. In short I think chain permas are better unless someone else has a reason other than aesthetics that cable is better.

Kevin Mokracek · · Burbank · Joined Apr 2012 · Points: 363

I wouldn’t be too concerned about galvanic corrosion using zinc plated QL’s if you are using the correct size.   The contact a QL has with a hanger is minimal as far a surface area and pressure.  What IS important is not mixing the metals of hanger and bolt.  It would be great to have a SS QL but a QL can easily be visually inspected for corrosion and changed out if needed.   Don’t skimp on bolts and hangers, always use SS unless you are in the desert and even then why not use SS?
Don’t skimp on QL size.   Better yet just buy cable draws from Climbtech or Fixe and have peace of mind.   

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 470

1/4in quick links will break climbing rope but I still would not use them for climbing anchors. I only did that test once and they look so darn wimpy.   5/16ths quick links will break climbing rope every single time . I have done that test many times and will bet any ammout of money that you are willing to put down to prove it. Heck i will even supply the rope if the bet is big enough ;)  

Delaney Bray-Stone · · Kimberley, BC · Joined Aug 2018 · Points: 122
Nick Goldsmith wrote:

1/4in quick links will break climbing rope but I still would not use them for climbing anchors. I only did that test once and they look so darn wimpy.   5/16ths quick links will break climbing rope every single time . I have done that test many times and will bet any ammout of money that you are willing to put down to prove it. Heck i will even supply the rope if the bet is big enough ;)  

Break rope? What are you talking about? The question was about connecting chain to a hanger using a quicklink, using a carabiner on the rope-side to form a perma draw. Rope never touched quick-links.

I went back today and added 3/8" zinc plated QLs folks. And whipped. It was chill.

Nick Goldsmith · · NEK · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 470

talking about the link being stronger than your rope.   I don't break the rope over the radius of the link as that radius is less than a caribiner but I have the link in the system. clip a biner to the link. rope runs through the biner and I break the rope with a dump truck. works every time. 

Yes Mark you are missing something. If the quick link is STRONGER than your CLIMBING ROPE  by default it is strong enough to use in a perma draw. However I do not feel that 1/4 in stock has enough meat to   pass the long term use requirements so I prefer a minimum of 5/16ths or 8mm for climbing anchors.  Additionally in my break tests the locking collar of the quick link is screwed shut. In the event that a 1/4inch quick link became unscrewed I doubt it would be strong enough to hold a hard fall. I  have Not done any tests to confirm that. Post limits suck. 

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Nick Goldsmith wrote:

talking about the link being stronger than your rope.   I don't break the rope over the radius of the link as that radius is less than a caribiner but I have the link in the system. clip a biner to the link. rope runs through the biner and I break the rope with a dump truck. works every time. 

I’m missing something here. How is this relevant to the discussion?

NickMartel · · Tucson, Arizona · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 1,332

I think he is saying they are strong enough as it would be your rope that snaps before the 1/4”QL would, and obviously whips don’t generate enough force to break our rope let alone the QL which is stronger that the rope in his dump truck break test.
I use 5/16. 

Alexander Stathis · · Chattanooga, TN · Joined Jan 2016 · Points: 657
Delaney Bray-Stone wrote:

Break rope? What are you talking about? The question was about connecting chain to a hanger using a quicklink, using a carabiner on the rope-side to form a perma draw. Rope never touched quick-links.

I went back today and added 3/8" zinc plated QLs folks. And whipped. It was chill.

Hey man, I see you already got there, but I figured I'd throw my hat in the ring too. My primary concern with 1/4" links is that over time as you whip on them the hanger will gouge the steel out. 5/16" and the bigger 3/8" have a lot of margin for this to occur over a long period, 1/4" not so much. So typically people 'round these parts use min 5/16".

Down here in the south we use zinc plated link/chains/etc for permas. Is it ideal? nah. obviously if it was the same price we'd be buying 304/316. But the reality is a zinc plated link will last 10+ years and still be fine. By that judgement, it'll need to be replaced due to gouging far before it rusts out. And as you said, chain is easy to inspect/swap out.

Just my thoughts. 

Matthew Jaggers · · Red River Gorge · Joined Sep 2017 · Points: 695

The issue with QL gouging out on the hanger can be significantly mitigated by using glue ins. I know glue ins aren't appropriate in every rock type, but they are ideal for the majority. A fat glue in for a perma'd crux is the best option all the way around.

Delaney Bray-Stone · · Kimberley, BC · Joined Aug 2018 · Points: 122
Matthew Jaggers wrote:

The issue with QL gouging out on the hanger can be significantly mitigated by using glue ins. I know glue ins aren't appropriate in every rock type, but they are ideal for the majority. A fat glue in for a perma'd crux is the best option all the way around.

Kind of a shitty option for new-routing hard overhanging terrain. Especially on routes completely devoid of gear placements where you have to place bolts just to get into the wall to clean/figure out beta. I guess that removable bolts would solve that, but that's a big investment. Seems easier just to throw a fat QL in?

If I was for whatever reason replacing the bolts on this route, I'd agree with using glue-ins.

Matthew Jaggers · · Red River Gorge · Joined Sep 2017 · Points: 695
Delaney Bray-Stone wrote:

Kind of a shitty option for new-routing hard overhanging terrain. Especially on routes completely devoid of gear placements where you have to place bolts just to get into the wall to clean/figure out beta. I guess that removable bolts would solve that, but that's a big investment. Seems easier just to throw a fat QL in?

If I was for whatever reason replacing the bolts on this route, I'd agree with using glue-ins.

I clean aid down 90+% of all the steep routes I bolt, but occasionally I have to use a couple of 3/8 x 4" Titen HD bolts with a shitty old hanger to get myself into position. These bolts are less than a dollar and are super easy to install and remove. You can literally unscrew them while youre hanging off them and then go for a swing when they pull. There's no excuse to not be using glue ins the first time around any more.

Delaney Bray-Stone · · Kimberley, BC · Joined Aug 2018 · Points: 122
Matthew Jaggers wrote:

I clean aid down 90+% of all the steep routes I bolt, but occasionally I have to use a couple of 3/8 x 4" Titen HD bolts with a shitty old hanger to get myself into position. These bolts are less than a dollar and are super easy to install and remove. You can literally unscrew them while youre hanging off them and then go for a swing when they pull. There's no excuse to not be using glue ins the first time around any more.

Cool, I'll try it out. Will that hold you on a roof though where there's no shear forces (pure horizontal)?

Matthew Jaggers · · Red River Gorge · Joined Sep 2017 · Points: 695
Delaney Bray-Stone wrote:

Cool, I'll try it out. Will that hold you on a roof though where there's no shear forces (pure horizontal)?

So long as the rock is decent quality, most definitely. Just be sure not to over crank them. They have no torque spec, and only need to be tightened down "just enough", as they can strip the rock if you over do it. They are very easy to tell when you have them snugged down though. You could always get the 5 or 6 in versions too if you want even more holding power, or even the 1/4" version if your rock is bullet.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Fixed Hardware: Bolts & Anchors
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