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Gear question for 3 season cascades
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Hey all, I'm looking at getting into mountaineering and plan on taking a glacier course in the North Cascades this summer. In the future I hope to do some things like Eldorado, ptarmigan traverse, beginner routes for Baker and Rainier. I understand Rainier may be different than the other objectives and wouldn't mind renting for it, otherwise I'm mostly keeping an eye out on used or budget friendly gear as I don't plan on doing more than two or three trips a year. I'm hoping to get some opinions/recommendations for a puffy and crampons. I was looking at the cumulus incredilte endurance or montbell altiplano or Rab alpine microlight (~5 oz fill options). Seems like I should be wearing this over all my layers including the hard shell? Worried about the fit since cumulus and montbell japan seem to have a more european/asian slim fit. Just recently I saw that Steve House recommends a synthetic parka even though it seems most parkas are down...is synthetic parkas what people are leaning more towards in the wet PNW? I don't mind spending a bit more for this layer as I can probably use it in the future off the mountain. For crampons, would 10 points be sufficient or should I look at getting 12s? Also, I have bad family eye history so I've been looking at cat 4 glacier glasses. Is that overkill/should I use cat 3? This is what I have for gear right now Top: Uniqlo heat tech base layer tropic comfort sun hoody Ferrosi hooded jacket Atom LT Beta AR Bottom: Uniqlo heat tech base layer OR cirque pants Marmot precip full zip pants La Sportiva Trango tech leather Thanks! |
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The one item I don't see on your list that you will want to get is an ice ax - these are really easy to come by used, both here and facebook marketplace. |
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Here are my opinions, note that they are just opinions. -I’d ditch the base layer top if you are getting a sun hoody. I’d also ditch the base layer bottom, I really only use those around winter. -The Trango Tech boot would be really really far from my first boot to recommend to somebody just getting in and choosing a do-it-all boot. That thing is closer to a hiking boot than a mountain boot. I think a full shank boot like the Nepal Cube or Mont Blanc Pro paired with trail runners is a great and versatile combo. You can easily climb Rainier in the summer with those. -Get cat 4 glasses. Photochromic is nice if you are concerned about cat 4 being too dark, and you can put them on earlier in the morning. I’ve burnt my eyes here with cat 3, and I don’t have particularly sensitive eyes. -Steve House recommends a lot of things that aren’t practical for “typical” climbers. I’d recommended looking at a lightweight and compressible down jacket. I personally very rarely carry a parka during summer though. On the objectives you mentioned (including Rainier) I personally would take a sun hoody, 2 ultralight down jackets (MH Ghost Whisperer), and a hardshell. The Atom LT could be a nice sub for one of the ultralight downs. This obviously requires a good forecast though. -For crampons, on the objectives you mentioned you can literally get away using anything. I think the 12s tend to be more versatile as you progress and don’t increase weight in any significant way. |
Chris Cwrote: Thanks Shepido, yah I have an ice axe. Thanks Chris, yeah I included the base layers and full zip pants since I may do some earlier season stuff later on. How are you layering with the 2 down jackets? Seems like they would both be under the hardshell? I'm more curious as to shoulder season with rain. Are you not bringing a parka to go over it all? I had heard people mention that the trango tech is more like an all around but not very good at any specific thing type of boot. I figured the nepal cube would be overkill for the places I listed (minus Rainier which I could rent)? And it would weigh more having to bring the trail runners and a heavier boot and costs a lot more hah Appreciate your thoughts! |
Charles Cwrote: For the jackets, I kind of layer them as a mix and match. For the warmest layering, I would layer it like you said- down, down, then hardshell. But almost every layering combo with the 3 is practical in one setting or another. For the parka, two high quality down jackets layered does the trick pretty well. Specifically on Rainier, I do like traveling with 1 parka for the group if we aren't carrying sleeping bags, just for emergency situations. By "shoulder season", it really depends on what month and how bad of weather you are willing to go out in. For example, if I'm climbing Hood right now, I will not be bringing a parka. If I am climbing Rainier right now, I would be. If I were climbing Hood a couple months ago, I'd certainly be bringing the parka. For rain specifically, it's pretty rare that I find myself in rain and having a successful climb in the sense of getting to the top :). Just to be clear, I don't only climb with that jacket combo. Im specifically talking about mostly-snow objectives. Once rock gets involved, burlier jackets like the Atom LT are great. So a good combo if you don't want to buy a lot of jackets would be 1x ultralight down, 1x Atom LT, 1x hardshell. That is actually the exact combo that I use a lot. For the Trango Tech, there is a decent amount of flex in that boot and it is also not very insulated. I see a lot of newer climbers in the area getting that boot, and it is certainly very possible to climb lots of objectives with it, but it is a boot that is far harder to climb once you get to steeper snow and easy ice. For example, I never understood why anybody would belay the Winnie's Slide of Shuksan until I went up/down in Trangos. I have seen a trend of a lot of people in the community recommending new climbers to buy the most basic piece of gear for the objectives at hand, but then after the new climber is slightly less new, then there is so much re-purchasing. Similar to my note about 10pt vs 12pt crampons. As for the weight, I honestly think it is easier to go down a trail with trail runners and boots on my back, than light-ish mountain boots on my feet. |
Charles Cwrote: I think you have gotten some good advice. One thing to think about is navigation. Routes are sometimes obvious (DC on rainier) but sometimes not. A navigation aid of some type is important. Some people carry a map and compass, I carry an inreach. Also if you are going to be climbing Rainier or doing any type of glacier travel you will need rope, picket, prussic, pulley etc. Freedom of the hills is a great book to learn how to use the gear. |
Chris Cwrote: Thanks again, Chris. Sounds like a ~5 oz down jacket will do the trick for most of what I'm looking for. I always heard it's good to get something to go over all layers including the hardshell since it's easy to take on/off but I imagine it won't be too big of a hassle to take off the hardshell and put the jacket on since it'll likely be at the summit, belay or camp in not too crazy weather. If I'm doing more wintery objectives or Rainier, then I will look to buy/rent a parka. I will look at getting 12 pt and see if I can get a deal on the nepal cubes/something similar. Thanks BBB, yes I understand there's more to what I need but for those, I may rent/have a friend that has all that so I'm concentrating more on worn gear. |
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regarding the glasses, Cat 3 vs 4 refers to the amount of visible light transmission (Cat 4 is less than 10% VLT). also, not all Cat 4 glasses are the same. ’burning your eyes, aka “snow blindness” is from UV light. All good sunglasses give great UV protection. The bigger issue there is making sure the sides, top and bottom are covered. Which type you need comes down to personal comfort and preference. I have skied in my 8% VLT goggles in Colorado, when my daughters were in their ~40% VLT goggles. Same with sunglasses. So, if you tend to prefer sunglasses sooner rather than later, and darker rather than lighter, go for the cat 4, just make sure you have something lighter along as well. Even on an overcast day, there is still lots of UV light, but cat. 4 glasses will likely be darker than you want. This is where the Photochromic/transition (insert brands name) can help. |
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Hey Charles! Charles Cwrote: I can't speak to the fit of these particular garments. However, a 5oz (140g) down jacket is a really nice piece for summer Cascades mountaineering. I use an OR Transcendent hoodie for that type of climbing and it works awesome. These are not warm enough for winter or shoulder season, but great for PNW summers. It should fit over all of your other layers, but in summer that shouldn't be incredibly bulky. A typical layering for me might be a sun hoody, Ferrosi, Nano Air (or similar). Then the down jacket on top for belays, breaks, camp.
You're going to see a wide split between people on this topic, it's a very personal choice. In my opinion, if you're out in stable summer weather, down rules due to packability and warmth. Other people really like to have a synthetic jacket in case they get into a 4 day epic bivy on the standard route on Eldorado.
Just get a standard 12 point semi-auto crampon. They will be the best all-around do everything piece, and will be great for most objectives in the area.
The Beta AR is a really serious, burly, expensive jacket. You might consider a lighter jacket for this type of climbing, where you generally won't be out in extended bad weather, and save yourself some weight and some money. If you really want Arcteryx, the Alpha FL is the standard piece. Lots of other brands make great pieces for way less money, but the downside is the barista at Starbucks won't know how much of a badass you are.
I'm going to disagree with Chris here and say that the Trango Tech is an AWESOME choice for a 3-season Cascades boot. You might want something different for Rainier (due to temps) or if you get into steep ice climbing. I've used the Trango Evo, Charmoz, and am now using the Zodiac Tech and it is really nice having a lighter more hikable boot on your feet for approaches and routes like the Ptarmigan Traverse which has lots of moving over mixed terrain. I rarely carry a rain pant on climbs in the PNW, but you probably need it for your glacier course, and the Precips are an appropriate choice. |
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For the down jackets, start by looking at the fill weight/ total weight ratio. If it is less than ~35%, keep looking. The problem with mass produced down jackets is that they tend to add a lot of ‘features’, and even worse, extra fabric that does nothing. Several of the down jackets my family owns have an extra layer of fabric in the chest. They use this for the pocket, and extend it all the way up and down. 5 ounces of down fill (listed for size M), is on the high side for summer use. I would probably look more around 3 ounces (of 850fp or higher). I suspect Steve House’ suggestion for synthetic is based in his goals: (extreme) alpine climbing. Yours are mountaineering. In alpine climbing, due to the technical nature of the routes, and the steep terrain, you are far more likely to be hit with melt water or spindrift. So, even in dry weather, you might be getting wet. The next issue is moisture from within: in (alpine) climbing, you are working very hard, getting sweaty, then on belay, you are stock still.so, you add a belay jacket over your damp clothes. you are doing this fairly low down, because you are not moving. So, if your insulated jacket gets wet there, you will be suffering with it once you get higher up, and for a long time. By contrast, in moderate mountaineerring, you are moving at a steady state, in hands free terrain, so you can adjust your clothes to keep from getting sweaty. You only don the down parka for the highest elevation push. Even if it were to get a bit damp at that time, you only have to wear it for the highest elevation part of your day. That said, since modern synthetics have gotten quite good, and they are only about 20% heavier than down, I am tending towards synthetics more and more for ultralight jackets. After all, a jacket with (less than) 3 oz of down, would only be about 1/2 ounce heavier with synthetic insulation! However, down will still pack far smaller and last longer if you stuff it into tight backpacks. If you choose a synthetic jacket with no or minimal quilting, that might even end up as warm or warmer than an down filled jacket of the same weight! The best example would be the, made in the USA, Enlightened Equipment Torrid Apex Jacket: https://enlightenedequipment.com/apparel/ No quilting, so no cold spots, and very good wind resistance. The latter might easily make it warmer than far thicker down jackets, on a windy mountaintop. |
Tjaard Breeuwerwrote: I think this is unnecessary splitting of hairs. An extra oz of down is very little weight, and you might appreciate the extra warmth. I'm sure 4 oz is also fine. Worrying about 4 vs 5 oz is silly. There are lots of great jackets out there that aren't 850 FP. The obsession with ever-higher fill power in medium warmth jackets seems mainly aimed at emptying wallets and supporting marketing; the weight difference for a given amount of loft/warmth is inconsequential in a summer-weight jacket, they are more expensive, and there is even a possibility that a larger quantity of lower FP down is actually warmer when the wind is blowing, the layer is getting compressed, etc.
I think that the tiny holes filled with thread on a typical sewn through jacket aren't a significant source of wind permeability. People use sewn through down jackets (Helios, Neutrino, Vega) on Denali for goodness sake, it's a lot windier up there than on Mt. Baker in July. That Enlightened jacket is totally fine as an option too. |
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@Kyle Tarry, I agree, 4 or 5 ounces of down, all else being equal, is not a big burden. I meant it more in general. Typically, lightweight jackets are more in the 3 oz of fill. 5 ounces of fill (in M) and you’re really starting to get something for very far below freezing. Take Montbell for example. Superior down parka , 2.5 ounces of fill. Summer weight. Total garment, 8.7 ounces. Alpine Light, 4.8 ounces of fill, let’s call it ‘shoulder season weight’. Total weight 13.8 ounces total weight. So you actually increase by 5 ounces by going up a ‘category’. I agree that for ultralight jackets, high fill power is not necessary, but the market has gone to that. All lightweight jackets I know of, are made with 800fp or more. things made with 650fp down tend to also use heavy/poor quality fabrics and notions. The sewn through construction does create a far colder jacket. Both from the holes for the stitching and from the thin spots where there is no loft. Thin jackets are worse than thick ones in this regard, because they have smaller baffles, thus more sewing and cold spots per surface area. This is one reason why the jackets you mentioned used on Denali work for those people. The other, simpler issue is that there is no alternative. (Although we are starting to see new developments in both down and synthetic, where stitching through the outer is reduced or eliminated). In thinner garments, on the other hand, there are alternatives. |
Tjaard Breeuwerwrote: Very far below freezing? I dunno about that. I don’t climb with anyone who would use a 5 oz fill jacket as their belay piece at 20 F. Personal preference may vary. Also, it can be cold up high on Baker, Eldorado, etc. so for OPs use a little extra warmth seems ok.
That’s silly talk. The Rab Microlight Alpine mentioned by OP is 700 fill and it’s a very high quality piece. I have an OR transcendent (650 fill) and it’s been up a bunch of grade IV routes and is also a great piece. A down jacket is just feathers, nylon, and a zipper, so there isn’t much “quality” variation anyway. The notion that you need to buy a 900+ fill jacket from a high priced luxury brand in order to be warm on a route is silly, and I don’t think that type of cost/wealth gatekeeping is good for the sport.
Yet, somehow, reputable companies and strong climbers around the world do just fine in sewn through pieces. I posit that the actual significance of this is far less important that the theoretical significance. Tjaard, how many of the OPs stated objectives gave you been on? |
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Charles I jumped in here to piggy back as I’m gearing up for something similar. 20% off coupons at REI and moosejaw will work on boots. Miyar adventures also just ran a sale and might be a good place to keep an eye on for some. My knowledge only applies to sales, can’t help with gear. |
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Well I think this gear discussion is devolving into "X climbed Y in Z" as it has in the past. Everyone can decide if that line of thinking carries weight for them. When I raced motorcycles there were similar online gear arguments interspersed with "bUt hAv u CrAsHeD iN iT?!" Plenty of more talented riders and climbers than me buy into that, so make your own call. I like to see what other people are using, but often end up with different stuff based on my (limited) understanding of the construction/materials, trial/error and what I've learned about myself. I'm amazed what some of my partners can wear at a frigid ice belay and not shiver in. And that anyone can climb in cold weather in those Temres gloves Colin Haley popularized. But it doesn't work for me. First time I went mountaineering in the Cascades I chose my layers based on my experience in a different environment taking into account the expected temps/humidity, terrain, likelihood of sunshine, trip length. Worked out fine and I haven't needed to modify my layers much on return trips since. I appreciate where both Tjaard and Kyle are coming from. I do think sewn thru jackets have cold spots and that their effects are magnified in high winds, though I don't think the mechanism is air entering stitch holes. More that there is less insulation in those spots and you're down to shell fabric. A Houdini feels windproof at 20mph but not as much at 50mph. I'm not saying that someone (maybe you Charles) can't get up a mountain in a sewn thru jacket, just like I'm not saying my partners can't ice climb in fishing gloves. But I do think box baffles make a difference, even if it isn't significant to some. I think if you wore a modest windshell over a sewn-thru down jacket you'd be warmer even though you're not adding any insulation, strictly speaking. You're adding a layer of warmer air between you and the outside along the entire length of the jacket. Same way a box baffle keeps a continuous layer of warmer air (in the insulation) between you and the outside. Regardless for our OP Charles C it's reasonable to base your choices on others' experience until you gain some of your own and simply trial the most popular recommendations hoping something sticks. I guess in your position (beginner) I'd personally err towards the conservative choice, but I'm not you. Of the jackets you listed, all things being equal I'd take the Montbell because it has big box baffles. All things are not equal however and although you've narrowed it to some nice options I think pragmatic considerations might lead me elsewhere. Cumulus and MB Japan would be a PITA to return if you don't like the sizing. If you're selling a bunch of stuff on eBay in your free time anyway or there's a local consignment option and you don't mind losing a few bucks, no big deal. But to me, seems a bit too much fuss if this is your only jacket at this point and you think you may want to use it in the near future. Something to be said for buying from the usual domestic retailers with easy/free returns. If you do go with the Cumulus my advice is to size up (I don't have that jacket in fairness but do have the Climalite and most people seem to think their Cumulus stuff fits a bit Euro-sexy). I like Montbell but I haven't personally tried their Asian fit. The Rab to me looks a bit underwhelming for what an average person would pay for it. Pretty typical narrow baffled sewn thru down sweater. More sewn thru baffles = more cold spots. Should be able to get a comparable one from eg Eddie Bauer First Ascent during one of their periodic fire sales for half as much. Probs made by the same Chinese kids in the same factory. https://www.eddiebauer.com/p/38832284/mens-downlight-hooded-jacket?sp=1&rrec=true Maybe the Rab hood will fit better over a helmet? I can't really tell from the website but it doesn't look that big. Their next jacket in the line (Electron Pro) pretty clearly has a helmet compatible hood. In that weight range it's hard to find box baffles. My issue with a lot of lightweight/sewn-thru down options beyond the construction is they don't have the features I'm looking for. No inner drop pockets. They aren't cut to go over all layers like a belay jacket (my preference). They aren't long enough to cover my butt. Hood doesn't go over a helmet easily. These features are more typical in big down parkas. Again your personal preference. Within that ~1lb sewn-thru down jacket class the Pata Fitz Roy hoody looks reasonably well featured and cut. They will probably liquidate them at half off later in the Spring as they seem to every year, I wouldn't pay MSRP. I like the Montbell Thermawrap Guide for the Cascades if you want to look at a synthetic. Not too spendy, zero-worries option. Not as light or packable as down but to me the difference is not significant in this range of jackets (in cold weather jackets it is). If you're trying to stuff all your overnight gear into a 30L pack (which I have zero interest in doing), maybe it will be significant to you. Crampons - I don't think the actual number of points is critical but again from a practical perspective the 12 point ones tend to have bigger secondary points that stick out further so if you ever find yourself wanting to do some front pointing you'd probably be happier. So it's not the presence of extra points, it's where the secondary points lie. Maybe there are some 10-points out there with aggressive secondary points and if you try a bunch on your boots you'll find them, but with no other info to go on I guess my advice is to buy 12. Glasses - photochromic! Problem solved. Much nicer in changing conditions, and if the sun starts really beating down you'll still be fine. Julbo makes nice ones if you have the budget, but shop around. I'd also recommend something like this https://bekogear.com/category/beko-classic-2/ I've gotten the worst sunburns of my life on glaciers. Rest of your layers look like a reasonable place to start. I am skeptical of the need for hardshell pants as some others have mentioned. Down fill power - higher means lighter and more packable for a given warmth, but in an of itself does not make a jacket warmer. Higher fill power may also be more susceptible to moisture. You can multiply fill power by fill weight to make a very rough warmth comparison. IMO if you're getting down for its relative advantages (weight, pack space) I'd maximize those advantages with a higher fill power if you have the opportunity. But it's not exactly critical. It's true that 800fp+ is much more common these days and even if you decided 650fp was for you it'd be harder to find one on the rack at your local gear shop. At the end of the day, beginner Summer mountaineering in the Cascades is relatively low-threat so I wouldn't agonize toooo much over this. You'll likely be fine in any of the gear mentioned in this thread. Go when the weather forecast is good, turn around if you're the least bit sketched. Might make sense to spend a bit less/shop sales for now. Backcountry has the Transcendant Kyle mentioned for $120. Once you have some more experience you may develop personal preferences and you can upgrade from there. Maybe you run cold. Maybe you are a bit more conservative in your risk assessment than average. Maybe you really enjoy a smaller pack. Or maybe not. Have fun :-) |
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@Kyle Tarry, I am sorry. I actually agree with pretty much everything you said. I think @Jdejace said it better than me. I certainly didn’t mean to make it sound like any other items wouldn’t work (and indeed, I have not been in the Cascades ever). And I also absolutely wasn’t implying you need expensive gear. The OP listed many high end brands, so I was assuming he was willing and able to spend a bit more if it was worth the money. I only meant to provide some tools and starting points for selecting a high performing jacket, especially in relation to cost/performance. You mentioned 900fp. I did not. Typically, down prices rise exponentially with fill power. The way the market is currently, I do not see much difference in price between ~750fp and 850fp. 900, and 1000 to are certainly way more expensive, and as you mentioned, in light and midweight garments, the weight savings would be minimal. Less than 700fp, and you are not really saving any weight compared to synthetics. Combine these two factors and that is why I suggested looking at ~850fp as a good starting point. The other reason was not so much to suggest going with 850fp, it was to clarify the amount of down. So when I said 3oz of down (850fp), that would be 2550 cubic inches of down. If you had a jacket with lower fill power, you’d need to adjust for that. To avoid someone reading that and starting to look at jackets with 3 ounces of 650fp. Agree that the OR and RAB jackets you mention are good quality, and will perform well. This was my mistake for poorly articulating my thoughts. When you can find >800fp down jackets at inexpensive brands, or 650fp at Costco and Uniclo, I certainly do think it is worthwhile to think twice about buying anything less. Not because it won’t work, but because I think you can do better for the same, or only slightly more money. For example, Rab Microlight: 16.5 oz jacket. 3660 cu.in. of down. $280 Montbell Alpine Light: 13.8 oz jacket, 3840 cu. in. of down. $249. So cheaper, lighter and warmer(most likely). Not meant to bash on Rab or OR. I have jackets from both brands in my house. Just using them as examples. But, I also have a Backcountry house brand and Mytrail, with ~3 oz of 850fill, lightweight fabrics, each bought for less than $100 on sale. As far as insulation amount, I actually run cold. You mention belaying at 20F. I agree, I’d want a ‘5oz fill class‘ or warmer jacket for that too. I was thinking you’d be wearing this for a morning start, or a cold, windy summit, if I am actually hiking/climbing in a ‘5 oz’ jacket, it would have to be closer to zero F. I think you and I were perhaps thinking of different goals that the OP has. I thought the OP was talking about moderate mountaineering, which I was equating to hiking, scrambling and easy climbing, with no, or very few, belayed pitches. Carrying too heavy of a pack, or having a jacket that is to warm to comfortable wear on your coldest times, are also detrimental to performance. He also listed a softshell as part of his kit, so I was factoring that into the layering equation, As far as the sewn through, and more or less quilting, I really only meant that not having sewn through seems every inch and a half, would make the jacket much warmer, especially in windy conditions, So at similar weight, my thin down jacket, with quilting every 1.5 inches, is probably no warmer than my daughter’s Enlightened Apex jacket, with nearly no seams, even though it’s a bit thicker. Not at all meant to say that sewn through doesn’t work (I have owned/still own several sewn though jackets). |
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It seems like these threads almost always end up with a bunch of people recommending gear based on a spreadsheet for objectives they’ve never been on, maybe in an area they’ve never even been to... OP, call the guides for the class you’re taking and ask for their recommendations. They take clients into these areas for hundreds of days a year. They know what works! |
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Crampons - for general PNW mountaineering my BD contact crampons (strap version) have been perfect. Got them used and they keep on working flawlessly. Easy to repair if needed and I have never had to fiddle too much to get a good fit on any of my boots. |
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Cat 4 lenses are not overkill. I cycle in Julbo Cat 4 lenses occasionally and can see fine. |
Kyle Tarrywrote: Thanks all for the insight! Always good to hear differing opinions from their own experiences. I know that mine may be different but it's a good starting point. It is easy to get lost in all this gear and overanalyze it. So do you typically not bring a hard shell in the summer? What lighter jacket do you recommend for wind/light rain? I have no brand preference and have Arc Teryx because I have extended family that works there and got a good deal, but with covid can't get across the border to Canada. |
Charles Cwrote: I don't carry a hard shell on every climb, but I would definitely bring one for a multi-day trip in the North Cascades. I'm just saying that the Beta AR is a lot of jacket. The Alpha FL might be more appropriate for that type of use (within the Arcteryx lineup). I often carry a much lighter waterproof jacket (like an OR Helium) when I think it probably won't rain, or a light 3L (I have an older Rab that they don't make any more that is ~10oz). Patagonia M10 is another option, or OR Interstellar. For less committing high output C2C climbs I might only bring a softshell or a wind jacket, but that's a judgement call based on a lot of factors that has some risk associated with it. |
