Climbers and Guns....? Hunting this fall?

Well, New Zealand's gun confiscation did nothing or worse.

"The government's clampdown on firearms and seizures of high-powered semi-automatic weapons has had no impact on a rise in gun crime and violence in New Zealand."

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/438377/rise-in-gun-crime-despite-government-clampdown-after-terror-attack

So of course more guns need to be confiscated.

"New Zealand: Ardern flags further gun control reforms after firearms charges peak"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/new-zealand-ardern-flags-further-gun-control-reforms-after-firearms-charges-peak

Nick- what would you say about how driver's licenses are so easy to get?

akafaultlinewrote:

You’ve clearly never been to Ak.  

Yes, I have.

Never said anything about guns being easy to get or not easy to get. just that there are shit ton of folks out there many of whom fancy themselves gun handy yet are in reality completely incompetent. there are also a shit ton of gun owners that simply don't have a good temperament or stable enough mind to own a gun.   Thoughts on vehicles. It's a totally different beast.  Unless you live in a city with good public transportation  you need a vehicle just to have a job to make money and pay taxes...   Come to think of it drivers licenses are not that easy to get. you have to go to school and pass a test..  If you fck up too many times they take it away from you.   Additionally guns and vehicles are simply tools.  The thing that separates them is their intended purpose. lots of tools can and do cause harm when used improperly yet their intended purpose is not to cause harm. its to accomplish a task. In the case of vehicles that task is transportation.   The task of firearms on the other hand  is to either kill or practice killing.... 

In the last month I’ve had half a dozen GSW patients ranging from someone in their early 20s who lobotomized themselves with a 9mm to an 88 year old dementia case who put a 357 through their femur. True patriots standing up for their right to bear arms, I guess. 

Brandon Rwrote:

Any civilian society that would actually be capable of defeating a defense department with a 700+ billion dollar budget is going to be shit-hole society far worse than what we have now. 

You know, I used to think that way, but watching how the insurgency/counter insurgency in Iraq and afghanistan has gone, I'm not so sure. I mean, certainly, if the authorities wanted to deploy an IFV to put down a riot, and really let it off the chain, yeah, that's gonna be a massacre. But the thing about guerilla warfare like that is just because one side wants to have a set-piece tank battle, doesn't mean the other side has to show up.

The crucial thing for winning an uprising like that is the morale battle. Oppressing one's own citizens is necessarily a lot harder on the average soldier than oppressing some Iraqi or Afghan.

Still, the government we should be resisting is the one that withholds oversight from the police, not the one that enforces it. But if you see somebody open-carrying at a protest, they probably aren't interested in constraining police power.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Never said anything about guns being easy to get or not easy to get. just that there are shit ton of folks out there many of whom fancy themselves gun handy yet are in reality completely incompetent. there are also a shit ton of gun owners that simply don't have a good temperament or stable enough mind to own a gun.   Thoughts on vehicles. It's a totally different beast.  Unless you live in a city with good public transportation  you need a vehicle just to have a job to make money and pay taxes...   Come to think of it drivers licenses are not that easy to get. you have to go to school and pass a test..  If you fck up too many times they take it away from you.   Additionally guns and vehicles are simply tools.  The thing that separates them is their intended purpose. lots of tools can and do cause harm when used improperly yet their intended purpose is not to cause harm. its to accomplish a task. In the case of vehicles that task is transportation.   The task of firearms on the other hand  is to either kill or practice killing.... 

Most people only get one f up with a gun and they lose the right to even hold so much as a cartridge for the rest of their life. Doesn't even have to be a dangerous use, just being in the wrong place. Go thru a divorce and lose your guns temporarily, even in no fault divorce with no abusive behavior claimed, its just the boiler plate of divorce papers.

Why should drivers that kill people, or nearly so get a pass? It's nice to get work by having a license, but if you get any number of medical conditions you lose your right to drive and no one gives a darn. You can own a car without a license or schooling. A drivers license is good in any state and most other countries. You can drive as young as 14 in some places. Sell a car to a felon, no one cares. Idiots driving cars abound.

You ignore the function of firearms as needed for self defense to stop killing, 

I would agree that people who do dangerous things with tools shouldn't get to use those tools anymore for a good long time till they prove they've matured or changed.

I have no doubt that if the trumpers actually  went ahead with their fantasies and started a full scale insurgency that they could turn our country into a third world shithole.   It would be very bad.  Shooting IPSC, Steel and pins in the late 80's and early 90's I obviously hung out with a lot of serious gun nuts. there was the usual grumbling about the govt.  When Oklahoma  bombing happened that stopped instantly. There was universal condemnation  of the bombing and  a rally around the flag.  This seems like a different time where the folks most intent on tearing it all down are so misguided that they think they are rallying around the flag when in fact they are destroying it.. 

Idaho Bobwrote:

Yes, I have.

I’m glad you have to been to Ak. Just don’t know why people are lecturing others on bear safety when without knowing their circumstances (same with gun control) 

fwiw-I live in one of the most bear dense areas on the planet. Last year-in the span of three weeks-I saw 27 bears-some times they were 10 feet away from me- Most people will never see one bear. I’ve had bears piss on my tents (while I’m in it), bears charge through my campsite, bears go in my backyard treehouse. Ive been stalked by bears.  I’ve had to chase bears out of my trash cans. I’ve come between a sow and her Cubs.   
 I’ve had several friends attacked by bears-and never did any of them say-“l am glad I only had 5 rounds!”  

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

I have no doubt that if the trumpers actually  went ahead with their fantasies and started a full scale insurgency that they could turn our country into a third world shithole.   It would be very bad.  Shooting IPSC, Steel and pins in the late 80's and early 90's I obviously hung out with a lot of serious gun nuts. there was the usual grumbling about the govt.  When Oklahoma  bombing happened that stopped instantly. There was universal condemnation  of the bombing and  a rally around the flag.  This seems like a different time where the folks most intent on tearing it all down are so misguided that they think they are rallying around the flag when in fact they are destroying it.. 

Are you describing antifa?

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

. just that there are shit ton of folks out there many of whom fancy themselves gun handy yet are in reality completely incompetent. there are also a shit ton of gun owners that simply don't have a good temperament or stable enough mind to own a gun.   

I think this YouTube vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzE pretty much says it all....

ed "my cold dead hands..." e

Buck Riowrote:

Buffalo Bore ammo is going to run on the HOT side of safe. I handload, and I can't get close to the pressure and velocity they get in their .358 Win ammo. The primers were all flattened, and the cases are hard to extract in a lever gun, which both indicate excessive pressure.

If you really want a bear load, use a heavy cast bullet for the caliber you are shooting. In a .44 Mag it would be 300 grain and heavier, with a flat meplat. You don't need a ton of velocity for a 5 yard shot. What you need is penetration, which the heavy bullet will give you, even at moderate velocities.

Buffalo Bore says that the ammo is even safe in the colt SAA reproductions, and I believe it is hardcast.

If it was a real brown bear that actually wanted to eat you I would much prefer an 870 with slugs than a 500 pistol that weighs almost as much as the shotgun but is light years harder to shoot

 accurately... 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

If it was a real brown bear that actually wanted to eat you I would much prefer an 870 with slugs than a 500 pistol that weighs almost as much as the shotgun but is light years harder to shoot

 accurately... 

because of portability-no one backpacks with a shotgun in Ak.  They will definitely be used for fishing-but not for any long distance trails  

You ever try to draw up and sight a shotgun compared to a pistol? The reaction time is no comparison. In these situations-speed is just as important as accuracy-shotgun loses every time. 

   Some will use shotguns-but when they are using shotguns, many often use pistol grips  to increase portability-which definitely negates any accuracy that you may have had (how accurate is shooting a pistol grip from the hip)

At that point, compared to a pistol grip, the 500 is the accuracy winner. And for speed-the 500 is the winner by far.  Pistol for the win.  

Have to  beg to  differ on that one.  Having shot a boat load  of  pistol matches and a  fair  number of 3 gun  matches  the  shotgun  wins on  speed, accuracy and  power.   Watched  my  friend  Pat  Higgins  clean a 4x8 table of 5 bowling pins in .75 seconds  with a benelli.  Fastest I have ever done it or seen it done with a pistol  is  in the low  two seconds  range..   My  nieces  husband was a fishing  guide in AK for a summer Few years ago.  They  carried  shotguns.   As with most  shooting situations  the best tool for the job is going to vary according to what the  individual shooter is most  comfortable with.  

Dead Headwrote:

Buffalo Bore says that the ammo is even safe in the colt SAA reproductions, and I believe it is hardcast.

It depends on what caliber, the calibers that never were made in a weak gun (like a .358 Win, or .308) they do load some hot shit. Not that it will wreck your rifle, it just is probably a blend of powders I can't get commercially. They can get more velocity while keeping pressures under industry max.  My handloading is done for accuracy only. Whatever I am shooting won't care how fast the bullet is going, so I don't load anything to the gills unless that's what is most accurate in that particular rifle.  Every one of my rifles has only one load.  

Test

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Have to  beg to  differ on that one.  Having shot a boat load  of  pistol matches and a  fair  number of 3 gun  matches  the  shotgun  wins on  speed, accuracy and  power.   Watched  my  friend  Pat  Higgins  clean a 4x8 table of 5 bowling pins in .75 seconds  with a benelli.  Fastest I have ever done it or seen it done with a pistol  is  in the low  two seconds  range..   My  nieces  husband was a fishing  guide in AK for a summer Few years ago.  They  carried  shotguns.   As with most  shooting situations  the best tool for the job is going to vary according to what the  individual shooter is most  comfortable with.  

I  think a lot comes down to what a person is more comfortable with. Before I started really practicing with my pistol I could get  a shot on target  quicker and more accurately with my big old hunting rifle than I could with my pistol.

I am not saying a rifle is faster etc etc etc, just that I had way more practice with snap shots with my rifle than I did with my pistol  for a long time. 

Hey gun folks,   

I don't think I'm going to win any friends, but here goes.  I flagged this thread and send the following note the the moderators: 

"I may be wrong, but I noticed that a recent thread about gun control seemed to disappear, I assume because of political reasons. Regarding this thread about climbers and guns, 1) Why is it allowed to exist at all, that is, what is the special relevance to climbing, and 2) why is it not in the politics or non-climbing section?  I know guns are a controversial subject, and for the record I am not opposed to gun ownership (admittedly with far more regulation that currently exists) but I fail to see why this thread belongs here, especially at this time, as the country confronts yet more mass shootings.  Enough is enough.  Let's stop the glorification of guns and violence, or at the very least get this discussion off a popular climbing sites."

There is some cross over between hunting and climbing. Goat hunting for one. Like the volunteer mountaineers that worked in Olympic National Park to get rid of invasive species.

Also the self defense being discussed about bears and backcountry travel.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the response.  I agree, there is some cross over between hunting and climbing, I would argue primarily regarding conserving wild places, and moving through the back country.  Hunters are an important group, or voice, in conservation efforts. And, yes, of course, there are bears in the back country, and sometimes carrying a gun is appropriate.  

But a simple scan through this thread here and there, revealed, as it so often does on gun threads, talk of Obama and Clinton taking guns, bravado masquerading as tactical knowledge with talk about, "taking out my enemy before he is aware," an obsession with gun technology, even Covid politics.  

It's a mess, and it doesn't belong on MP.