Sandbagging does not make you tough

Trevor Taylorwrote:

But does it actually matter if you can climb 5.9 or 5.10 or 5.11 at some crag that doesn’t make you tough it just means you can get up a climb? Assigning an abritrary value to something then having a bunch of other people assign an arbitrary value and then you caring about that value seems to prove the opposite of tough. A tough person isn’t gonna worship some climbing grade. There going to try something hard for them, if it’s called 5.9 or 5.11 they are gonna go out there and fight their way up it. Going from index 5.9 to tensleep 5.11 doesn’t make you tough.

Ok, but to me, usually the most aesthetically pleasing lines and especially longer routes (which I like to do) tend to have higher grades involved. So I’d prefer to know I can make it up something as opposed to losing gear. Climbing good sandbags will set you up well for this.

On the flip side, look at what happened to James Pearson for claiming the hardest trad grad in the world, then getting downgraded drastically. He was blasted, and basically called a fraud. People are scared of their routes being called soft, so it’s actually safer to sandbag in terms of reputation ( if you care about that). I haven’t put up any routes, but I’d rather climb at a stiff area than a soft one, because I travel a lot, and would like to feel confident in my selection of climbs I’d like to try.

PS if I did develop an area, everything would be 5.8 the really hard stuff would have a +...

saign charlesteinwrote:

Ok, but to me, usually the most aesthetically pleasing lines and especially longer routes (which I like to do) tend to have higher grades involved. So I’d prefer to know I can make it up something as opposed to losing gear. Climbing good sandbags will set you up well for this.

On the flip side, look at what happened to James Pearson for claiming the hardest trad grad in the world, then getting downgraded drastically. He was blasted, and basically called a fraud. People are scared of their routes being called soft, so it’s actually safer to sandbag in terms of reputation ( if you care about that). I haven’t put up any routes, but I’d rather climb at a stiff area than a soft one, because I travel a lot, and would like to feel confident in my selection of climbs I’d like to try.

PS if I did develop an area, everything would be 5.8 the really hard stuff would have a +...

I agree I would rather climb in a sandbagged area but I don't really think that makes you any tougher. Someone was essentially implying Bryan Burdo wasn't tough when I was in Mazama. First, if you have met the dude you would know he loves type 3 fun. Secondly, so many of his climbs are so far below his limit that he is clearly just scrubbing for someone elses enjoyment, which is a tougher thing to do than your own. Third he is old as heck so climbing 5.12 in your 20s versus 60s is hard. Forth, he is so stoked about climbing and not too concerned about preserving his ego.

I agree the James Pearson move is weak, but 99.9% of climbs are not cutting edge, its just some dude who stared at the rock for hours trying to assign a grade to the route. When you scrub a route you really see 1000x combinations of how it goes but then you have to figureout what is most efficient without a mountain project page or a friend to describe the Beta. Either way some dude calling the route 5.x and another person calling it 5.x-1 does not really reflect climbing ability.

But back to the topic of toughness you could have a:

5.11 tensleep climber go to index and assume they are still a 5.11 climber, they get shut down and upset (not a tough climber)
A 5.9 Index climber go to tensleep and still climb 5.9, they are trying so far below their ability level and scarred to try harder (not a tough climber)
A 5.11 tensleep climber go to index and work their way up through the grades at index starting at 5.8 (this is a tough climber because they swallowed their ego and a trying to push themselves)
A 5.9 Index climber going to tensleep and they continually push themselves to harder grades (this is also a tough climber who is willing to push themselves). 

To comment to some of the stuff people say upthread. Most people want to climb grade 5.x because they think that is hard for them. If they live in tensleep and wanna send an 5.11a then thats great because 5.11a in Tensleep is their benchmark. Say you wanna climb 11a but you live in smith, well going to tensleep is a bit of a cop out on that goal because your essentially saying you wanna run three laps around a track in 6:00 but the laps are shorter in tensleep therefor the goal is easier.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I agree I would rather climb in a sandbagged area but I don't really think that makes you any tougher. Someone was essentially implying Bryan Burdo wasn't tough when I was in Mazama. First, if you have met the dude you would know he loves type 3 fun. Secondly, so many of his climbs are so far below his limit that he is clearly just scrubbing for someone elses enjoyment, which is a tougher thing to do than your own. Third he is old as heck so climbing 5.12 in your 20s versus 60s is hard. Forth, he is so stoked about climbing and not too concerned about preserving his ego.

I agree the James Pearson move is weak, but 99.9% of climbs are not cutting edge, its just some dude who stared at the rock for hours trying to assign a grade to the route. When you scrub a route you really see 1000x combinations of how it goes but then you have to figureout what is most efficient without a mountain project page or a friend to describe the Beta. Either way some dude calling the route 5.x and another person calling it 5.x-1 does not really reflect climbing ability.

But back to the topic of toughness you could have a:

5.11 tensleep climber go to index and assume they are still a 5.11 climber, they get shut down and upset (not a tough climber)
A 5.9 Index climber go to tensleep and still climb 5.9, they are trying so far below their ability level and scarred to try harder (not a tough climber)
A 5.11 tensleep climber go to index and work their way up through the grades at index starting at 5.8 (this is a tough climber because they swallowed their ego and a trying to push themselves)
A 5.9 Index climber going to tensleep and they continually push themselves to harder grades (this is also a tough climber who is willing to push themselves). 

To comment to some of the stuff people say upthread. Most people want to climb grade 5.x because they think that is hard for them. If they live in tensleep and wanna send an 5.11a then thats great because 5.11a in Tensleep is their benchmark. Say you wanna climb 11a but you live in smith, well going to tensleep is a bit of a cop out on that goal because your essentially saying you wanna run three laps around a track in 6:00 but the laps are shorter in tensleep therefor the goal is easier.

The OP isn't even talking about sandbagging. Maybe the title should be "Did you hear the news? Not all 5-9s are equal! Ratings actually vary between crags!" 

Obviously there are some crags in beautiful vacation locations with soft grades where climbers often get and post about their "first 11a send!" Obviously there are crags far from beaches and bikinis where sending a 5-9 crack (Tuolumne or J Tree or Index) is probably "harder" than sending 11a on close bolts in thailand or jack's canyon. 

No matter how much we can wish there was one universally applicable rating system, there isn't one. Instead, we try to rate routes in comparison with similar styles, and/or other routes at the same crag. A juggy face climb 5-9 with zero insecure holds and bolts every 6 feet will always feel easier than a delicate and sustained 5-9 slab protected with small gear, or a long sustained 5-9 crack with 2-4 inch gear where you're hauling large cams up with you. It's not that any of those routes is sandbagged or featherbagged at 5-9 - it's just that 5-9 is a very wide rating. If you think the wide 5-9 is sandbagged, it's only because you haven't climbed enough wide 5-9s yet. If you think the juggy 5-9 is soft, you might just not yet have a lot of experience on those "friendlier" kinds of routes. (Witness the many comments here from people who would prefer their local crag is relatively stout, so they can go on vacation and actually climb higher grades).

I have noticed that sandbagging in the 5.10 and below range can be off by more than a number, but sandbagging in the 5.13 and up range is almost always within a letter (mostly) or two (rarely)?  I have never heard the following for 5.10s.  "That 10b is soo sandbagged, it is clearly 10c." 

Does this mean that the "tough" mentality is more common among those at lower grades?  Maybe even more so with the "TRAD" climber?  

That's because the difference between a 5.13b and a 5.13c is bigger than the difference between a 5.9 and a 5.10a.

bryanswrote:

The OP isn't even talking about sandbagging. Maybe the title should be "Did you hear the news? Not all 5-9s are equal! Ratings actually vary between crags!" 

I'm the OP?

Leronwrote:

I have noticed that sandbagging in the 5.10 and below range can be off by more than a number, but sandbagging in the 5.13 and up range is almost always within a letter (mostly) or two (rarely)?  I have never heard the following for 5.10s.  "That 10b is soo sandbagged, it is clearly 10c." 

Does this mean that the "tough" mentality is more common among those at lower grades?  Maybe even more so with the "TRAD" climber?  

My friend used to say he was still working on becoming a 5-9 climber but felt he couldn't yet because he couldn't onsight every 5-9 route out there. (Wide, slab, chimney, offwidth, layback, etc.) We were both leading/sending upper11 sport and mid10 trad then and his comment mystified me. I thought 5-9 was easy! But over the 15 or so years since he told me that I've continued to hang on the occasional 5-9 crack, and I think back to his comment, and how right he was. if you find yourself hanging or scared on a 5-9, you still might not be a 5-9 climber, no matter how many 5-11/12 bolted climbs you've sent. You're a sport climber who isn't well balanced - and that only matters if you care about being well-balanced; not everybody cares, some people just want to claim a grade, and that's finer, too. Just don't say a 5-9 is sandbagged just because you think you're entitled to float up a "mere 5-9" since you've climbed routes with higher grades. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I'm the OP?

OP=original poster

Please stop putting a dash where there should be a period. It is highly irritating.

Bryan and lerons, I'm talking to you.

bryanswrote:

OP=original poster

I started this thread...I do agree past Trevor is always smarter than current Trevor

bryanswrote:

OP=original poster

Might have let the point fly over your head there...

Nic Gravleywrote:

Vantage is soft af. Gyms are a joke.

Don’t mean to hate on vantage, the climbing is awesome. But 5.11 there compared to 5.11 at Indian creek or j tree is way more chill. 

I might be one of the few who think this, but I think climbing at Vantage is way harder than the Creek. I've climbed 11- at the creek and my hardest send in Vantage is like 10b.... Just depends on what your strengths are...

Kelsey Blodgettwrote:

I might be one of the few who think this, but I think climbing at Vantage is way harder than the Creek. I've climbed 11- at the creek and my hardest send in Vantage is like 10b.... Just depends on what your strengths are...

Grades don’t matter at the creek, it’s all about hand size. If you have small hands and know how to hand jam you should probably be a 5.11 creek climber.

Vantage grades are soft for the most part. There are some areas and people who put up stout climbs there as well, but in general the grades are soft, but scary if trad climbing because of how bad most of the rock is

saign charlesteinwrote:

Vantage grades are soft for the most part. There are some areas and people who put up stout climbs there as well, but in general the grades are soft, but scary if trad climbing because of how bad most of the rock is

This inspires a new thread, "Can Choss be Graded?" There is this mega Classic line that I forgot to bring up any thing smaller than a #1, ripped off a rock 15 feet off the ground with no pro in! Good thing I learned my lesson and Saturday I forgot to bring up anything bigger than a .4!

To the other poster, I agree the OP is dumb as heck! Burn him at the stake!

Daniel Chode Riderwrote:

Please stop putting a dash where there should be a period. It is highly irritating.

Bryan and lerons, I'm talking to you.

I am not sure where I used a dash in place of a period.

Leronwrote:

I am not sure where I used a dash in place of a period.

5-9

5.9

^Bryans was the guilty party

Mark Pilatewrote:

^Bryans was the guilty party

Guilty - as charged.

Oh. My bad Leron.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

This inspires a new thread, "Can Choss be Graded?" There is this mega Classic line that I forgot to bring up any thing smaller than a #1, ripped off a rock 15 feet off the ground with no pro in! Good thing I learned my lesson and Saturday I forgot to bring up anything bigger than a .4!

To the other poster, I agree the OP is dumb as heck! Burn him at the stake!

Whale of wapanum, mega classic? Lol

so if you agree the James Pearson move was weak by featherbagging: then the opposite of weak is tough, and the opposite of featherbagging is sandbagging. So you agree sandbagging makes you tough.

Damn I shoulda been a lawyer....