Second pin on Northcutt Start to Eldo's Bastille is gone. What happened?

Brian Carverwrote:

If (god forbid) a bolt is put in, can it at least be put in about 4 feet below where the piton was? It could help keep the excitement factor up.

Also, I'll say it again, purple mastercam looks pretty good right there. 

Does the purple mastercam hold a fall or just look pretty good clipped to the rope?

Dave Hollidaywrote:

Does the purple mastercam hold a fall or just look pretty good clipped to the rope?

It looks pretty good clipped to the rope. Good enough that given the placement, my climbing ability, and prior experience on route, I could lead that pitch without a piton or bolt.

If one didn’t have experience on that pitch they could easily TR it to scope lead potential.

Today the crux piton that came out recently was replaced with a new one.  It's solid.  As mentioned above, there are also very good gear options.  Black totem, green alien, & offset brass nut placements all exist within 18" of either side of the pin.  If this piton comes out again, which is likely at some point, I would be in favor of not placing another pin or bolt.  Without the crux piton in place, this route would feel similar to Interceptor with slightly easier climbing and less spice.  

Undoubtedly there are climbers who will disagree, but keep in mind that there's an existing process via an ACE hardware application that allows anyone from the public to submit an application for a bolt.  Applications are reviewed by the Public, ACE, and the Park.  That's the beauty of the process and the forethought that the Eldorado climbing community had in 1992 when ACE was founded.

The lower piton, near the top of the crack before traversing right, was bad.  We tested it with a hammer and decided to remove it.  It was bent, rusted, placed in hollow sounding/fractured rock, and there is plenty of good gear above and below it.  Placing a new pin may have damaged the rock so we decided to permanently remove that piton. 

 Always consider backing up pitons with gear, especially if climbing near your limit.  And don't forget that 10d is hard in Eldo, that's just the way it is.

PS - if you climb regularly in Eldo and care about this stuff, please consider a donation to ACE.  Go to our website aceeldo.org

Interesting, Mike. 

While I'm glad that the new pin went in solidly, I still think that keeping the character of the route similar means there is a fixed piece there. I also think that all the fixed pieces of metal are eventually going to be stainless if they are important points of protection (probably a minority opinion). 

Here's a novel (halfway sarcastic) compromise: bore out the scar to 1/2" and use a Wave bolt without glue. It's loaded in sheer, so it should hold about as well as the pin, but it won't rust and can probably be removed from a round-ish hole without chipping out more rock. The spice factor would come from knowing that it's a non-glued glue-in. 

Ok- disregard the above. I'm fine with the pin (for now). 

Thanks Mike and Crusher for replacing the crux pin and keeping Eldo real.

Thanks to ACE for replacing the pin. After I climbed yesterday I ran into someone who'd "just whipped and lowered off the new pin," so I guess it holds!

I just stumbled on this thread. It was me that was with Mike and me that hammered in the new pin. I added a couple notes in the route comments and a couple photos. It's a BD fat baby angle (aka #2 angle). A lot of hammering. There was an existing, if subtle, slot from previous iterations of the placement and I drove the new pin at the same angle. My judgement is that it's set as well as a piton could be, in that location. I hammered on it longer than I would if it were a placement on an aid climb. If it were on an aid route, I'd happily swing around on it all day, trust it to hold big falls, whatever.

But on an aid climb we'd clean it within a few days. Pitons were never intended to be used as "fixed" gear. Pitons relies on simple compression and will gradually work loose from falls, corrosion, freeze-thaw, etc.  

My 2 cent's worth: I think that if this piton survives a decade, this particular placement should be sustainable for many more decades. The rock is solid enough and a similar piton can simply be hammered back in. If this piton comes out much sooner or if the rock around the placement changes, perhaps we should consider something different, maybe a bolt, placed, say, a foot or so lower.

Some excellent points raised here about whether we should replacing bolts with something other than a simple like-for-like. I think this should be a community discussion and a community decision. Each piton placement in Eldo has different considerations.

With this route, I'm not sure I agree with Mike. It looked to me like the placements in the diagonal are marginale, good enough to "slump" onto but not confidence inspiring for holding a hefty whipper. A bit lower In the dihedral there are plenty good placements. It's been a long time since I led this route but I recall having the mindset that that piton, right in my face at the crux, was a huge confidence booster. if it were not there, this lead would feel quite different. Again, this my 2 cents worth... YMMV.....  

Hey A C, some of your comment is obviously directed at me. I was just saying what I would have done at the time, please don’t confuse this with what should have been done nor what I believe should have been done in retrospect. I am no badass, and I assure you that my coffee, couch and newspaper are very comforting and warm this morning. I think it’s great what ACE did and I think I remember self-deprecating about being a hopeless romantic in respect to things never changing in Eldo (when like everything, they will) and then overtly thanking ACE for the new pin. I’m abundantly grateful that we have a community with so much experience and awareness so that the best possible solutions are found. Multiple heads are always better than one, especially in conjunction with my own. I’ve lost too many friends in the mountains and do not wish to see more injury and death. I’m sorry that your interpretation of my comment was that I  was advocating for a more dangerous environment.
I think it’s a complex issue that is condemned to perpetual critique and differing opinion. I am thankful that ACE and others far more experienced than I have the burden of grappling with all of this. Given the overwhelming amount of experience that ACE has, I believe it’s safe to say that the solution found was the best. I will say (coffee in hand, safely ensconced on my couch, NYT in arms reach), that I am against going around Eldo and replacing any suspect fixed gear with a bolt, without consensus from ACE and the community.
I hear and see your concern about accidents. I don’t want the accident rate to increase, believe me - half the time I’m climbing a pitch or at a belay I’m thinking about dead friends. That said, this game we play is dangerous whether it’s 4th class or run-out 5.14 and, to the age old point that has been made countless times, the danger is an important part of our world. Eldo is truly a school of hard-knocks, at any grade. I truly appreciate this about Eldo and just want to respect the nature of the mountains here and attempt to rise to their level instead of slapping in metal because people can’t tell the difference and are lured into the deception of apparent safety. It’s a tough (dare I say impossible) nut to crack and that’s why I am again so grateful for the incredible community we have here. Ahh shit, my coffee has gone cold.

 It's historical climb and was put up in a beautiful pure style.  Exciting is something climbers love and savor. A bolt would definitely take away the excitement of a pure line in a pure place.  

I agree 100% Mike C!

This is the same delusional ego-driven conversation that surrounds pretty much all fixed protection petitions in Eldo.  

My 2c is if everyone followed the published policies in a clear headed way (GFL), then there wouldn't be a problem.  

In particular, per Ace's own policy statement "routes which are rehearsed, top roped, and then bolted should be capable of being safely led on sight"

Go place that "good pro" and leap off the belay stance 3x - let us know how that goes.  Bonus if you film it.

Man - why the shade, Bill? It’s just a conversation, which I personally don’t see as a problem! “Delusional -ego driven” yeeeesh brah. Let’s try to be cool as if we were chatting in the lot, face to face. We all obviously love climbing and Eldo  but let’s not succumb to harshing down on each other when there is no need to. Any conversation and opinion is ego driven, including your own. 

I think Bill is adding a little bit of sass to an age-old debate. Clean climbing has been coming into conflict with safe climbing practically since it was invented. I would argue that no climb is worth permanent disabling injury or death, but the "ego-driven" element of boldness in climbing (some would say "toxic masculinity") dictates that we should accept potentially unacceptable risks in the name of purity. There's a lot of climbs that were originally done in a style that was either excessively risky by the standards of the average/prudent climber, or that was simply less risky to the first ascentionist than it is in the present day, because the FA party was placing the gear themselves wherever they felt they needed it. You aren't "allowed" to place pitons and bolts wherever you want anymore, so leaders have fewer options for ensuring safety than the FA party.

I can't speak to the Northcutt Start, but there are tons of climbs out there that relied upon key pitons placed by the FA/FFA party, as well as plentiful fixed gear that has long since disappeared. Expecting onsight free climbers to rely on janky old pitons and other fixed hardware (or bad clean placements where they used to be) for reasons of purity or ethics has gotten a lot of people killed. I can think of some names including people I knew.

So...a rock fell out of the dihedral where the first pin used to be, and now the route is much easier, there is a jug of a hand jam before the traverse and you can get a BD #2 and/or #1 a few feet below the pin. So the route has totally changed to maybe one move of 10a and you can backup the pin with textbook placements.