Inclusivity in climbing

@AV

The only systemic deprivation is left-wing policy (e.g. welfare, minimum wage, affirmative action) which incentivize laziness and suggest that minorities aren't capable of succeeding without help from white people. The effects of those policies play a much larger role in socioeconomic status in todays world than slavery.

I highly suggest reading or listening to one of the most respected scholars on the subject, Thomas Sowell.

Donald Thompsonwrote:

Access to the outdoors has everything to do with a long chain of personal choices having nothing to do with somebody or something else, but with the individual making choices leading to an outcome. To think otherwise is to allow a preconceived formula , a political ideology,  to stand in for a basic truth. Such things are done as a means of control -- as a power play, and usually arrive into someone's mind due to indoctrination and the cultural spread of truly bad ideas. 

In most cases the systemic racism meme is one of these truly bad ideas. It plays upon racially based guilt and is a manipulative instrument used by bad. people to gain power over susceptible minds.

Geez, what a nice world you live in?

The biggest raise I ever got, was when the boss of my all female department filed a discrimination claim. Her duties were essentially identical to the essentially identical all male department. Plus, she had more years in, more education, more experience. This was decades ago, but not ancient history, either.

There are still HOAs that have explicitly racist language in the fine print. With the original HOA owners largely deceased, they can't have a vote to strike that language, so it is ignored. Catch 22, yes, but it sure is clear in it's intention not all that long ago. These ard getting fixed, but it is a tedious process.

Sometimes, it isn't racism or misogyny, its just a majority being clueless about a minority. I don't think those dudes who put up the anchors BITD were antianyone, it simply wasn't a consideration at all.

Same thing for any specialized clothing, such as for wildland firefighting. Not sized for women. Or helmets, for crapssake. Until it was pointed out, gee, did you know that.many people of color are endowed with spectacular hair? How do you get that into white guy helmets, lol?!? Uhhhhh.....oh. Oops.

Is that racist? Probably not intentionally. 

Should it be fixed?

Sure! More market!

Will that happen tomorrow? Maybe not. 

And, to the example upstream about not risking something, because of an underlying fear?

That isn't so simple either.

No, you may not be thinking about the fear, at all. But it still underpins your decision making. I can't speak to being non white, as I'm white, but I am also female, and yes, there is, even as an old lady, an underpinning of male/female dynamics in the decision making process. Everything from the nuisance factor to YGD for real.

Should I pick up that hitchhiker? Stay in this parking lot overnight, solo? Hike the Boise foothills solo? Walk alone at night?? 

It is hardly ever in my thinking....but it is never gone, either. 

Ask any of my demographic, of almost any age.

And, technically? Women are the majority. Hmmmm.

Best, Helen

Yoda Jedi Knightwrote:

@AV

The only systemic deprivation is left-wing policy (e.g. welfare, minimum wage, affirmative action) which incentivize laziness and suggest that minorities aren't capable of succeeding without help from white people. The effects of those policies play a much larger role in socioeconomic status in todays world than slavery.

I highly suggest reading or listening to one of the most respected scholars on the subject, Thomas Sowell.

/thread

Yoda Jedi Knightwrote:

@AV

The only systemic deprivation is left-wing policy (e.g. welfare, minimum wage, affirmative action) which incentivize laziness and suggest that minorities aren't capable of succeeding without help from white people. The effects of those policies play a much larger role in socioeconomic status in todays world than slavery.

I highly suggest reading or listening to one of the most respected scholars on the subject, Thomas Sowell.

Thomas Sowell is absolutely incredible.  The man has actually experienced all of the issues in question and has very valuable insight.  You won’t find a better source of knowledge for this issue. 

Yoda Jedi Knightwrote:

Don't low income people in general have less opportunity to access climbing? What does race/ethnicity have to do with it? There are climbing gyms in every major city.

I was gonna go that far but I wanted to stay on subject and not dismiss the authors point. It’s a fact that minorities are treated different in society and a poor white kid still has more opportunity than an equally poor black kid. 

If anything, this thread and others like it prove that climbers would make absolutely dogshit politicians and policy advisors. 

I know I'm 14th page in oblivion here, but I'm super siked they are getting out and expressing themselves on their own routes made by them.

fucking awesome

Yoda Jedi Knightwrote:

@AV

The only systemic deprivation is left-wing policy (e.g. welfare, minimum wage, affirmative action) which incentivize laziness and suggest that minorities aren't capable of succeeding without help from white people. The effects of those policies play a much larger role in socioeconomic status in todays world than slavery.

I highly suggest reading or listening to one of the most respected scholars on the subject, Thomas Sowell.

The force is not with this one.

Buff Johnsonwrote:

I know I'm 14th page in oblivion here, but I'm super siked they are getting out and expressing themselves on their own routes made by them.

fucking awesome

Fuck yeah man! Happy to see people get out! I think people just need to stop shitting on others from both sides.

Kai Larsonwrote:

As an old, fat white guy, I can attest that climbing is not very inclusive.  Rock routes above 5.10 in difficulty have a negative disparate impact on my demographic.  Same goes for competitions.  I can count on no hands the number of old fat white guys participating.  So for me, it's very alienating,  It's the main reason why I have decided not to compete in these competitions.  There's no way I could fight against such obvious systemic oppression.  

This is a huge injustice, and needs to be addressed, right now.  

It's true, untill they start adding routes for people with no arms i wont be participating in this disgusting sport

Rocrateswrote:

Thomas Sowell is absolutely incredible.  The man has actually experienced all of the issues in question and has very valuable insight.  You won’t find a better source of knowledge for this issue. 

Still, it's just one man's opinion.

Dave K wrote:

Compared to whom?

But now you are getting it. Let me help you along: Climbers don't want to be politicians and policy advisors. 

Do you want politicians and policy advisors at the crag? 

Oh hell yeah! I'm glad I've finally got the Dave K seal of approval. 

Yes, I do. I want any and all people from all walks of life at the crag. Perhaps having some politicians climbing will lead to more advocacy for climbers. I'll now wait to see if you deem my opinion correct or not. Please don't delay, I've got things to do!

Dave K wrote:

it's about keeping politics away from the crags.

Ah yes, the enticing promise of "politics-free" crags... always there, just out of reach because someone brought up race, gender, or something else that white male climbers are uncomfortable talking about.

Climber 4QualityCommunitywrote:

Still, it's just one man's opinion.

Opinion has nothing to do with it and you saying that tells me you haven't looked him up.

Fuck off thread. 

Climber 4QualityCommunitywrote:

Still, it's just one man's opinion.

Some opinions are better than others.  That being said, Sowell’s arguments aren’t just opinion. 

Rocrateswrote:

Some opinions are better than others.  That being said, Sowell’s arguments aren’t just opinion. 

He endorsed Ted Cruz in 2016, need I say more?

Buff Johnsonwrote:

I know I'm 14th page in oblivion here, but I'm super siked they are getting out and expressing themselves on their own routes made by them.

fucking awesome

What!? Don't you know it's terrible to just be siked with what is actually happening? You have to view it through the lens of national 'politics' and feel polarized and attacked! The talking heads would be ashamed of you.

Worth being said, white supremacy isn't born out of people magically deciding that one race is better than another race. Its people who feel alienated trying to find community and the community they find ends up being white supremacy. When someone says your opinion does not matter because of x, that is a form of exclusion. When people say, I don't think your opinion matters at all because of your white privilege that in itself is a form of an exclusionary ideology. I simply do not see how you build an inclusionary culture predicated on excluding people. 

If you cannot articulate an argument that is not premised on the racial identity of you opposition your not making a argument.  

Building an inclusive culture means you include people from old to young, from black to white, from tall to short, from conservative to liberal. I will climb with everyone from gun toting conservative to communist liberal because people are more than their racial/political affiliations unless you let me deck, then maybe we can't be friends or we get married. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

If you cannot articulate an argument that is not premised on the racial identity of you opposition your not making a argument.  

I agree that the ideal outcome is a society where race, gender, sexuality, etc are treated equally and we can all sing kumbaya at the crag, share a laugh and a discussion about the routes named "Trail of tears" or somesuch, and then wave to the folks with rainbow and BLM flags on their front porches as we drive home. Please tell me if you find such a place.

However, this country is based upon and built on centuries of actions and arguments premised almost entirely on the color of people's skin, their genitalia, and who they love. But now that non-dominant people are entering historically white, male spaces, they need to tread lightly, make sure everyone feels included, and not reference race/gender/etc lest they make the dominant group feel uncomfortable in their utopian "politics-free" zones... To me, that's utter bullshit.