best trad crag in the USA/world?

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

No, but for what I enjoy about climbing, I could spend more time there than the gunks. For me it’s always about more than just the actual climbing: what’s the camping like, the ambiance, the road noise (or lack of, which I prefer). Do I get to a summit, or does it just end in the trees? New Paltz is certainly a cooler town, but I don’t go climbing to sit in traffic when I need a grocery resupply. To each their own, but I’ll maintain that a huge part of what makes the gunks popular is its proximity to NYC. That, and you don’t need to learn jams or smears, that alone makes it super attractive to gym chodes.

You just want a free place to stay ya freeloader. Camp Slime was a great feature of the place, its too bad they closed it for a boutique of a campground a mile away. Ive just never climbed trad anywhere in the world that has multiple 5-10' roofs on routes 5.8 and under. I like climbing through roofs, especially on gear, so Im partial.

Suprising there aren't better trad crags than the Gunks in the rest of the world.........

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

If the Gunks was in the middle of Iowa and not a two hour drive from NYC, no one would go and you know it. 

No way, people would drive 6 hours from Chicago for the Gunks. It's 3-4 to Devil's Lake and 6+ to RRG.

Someone say roofs? Not the best crag in the world but still pretty hard to beat, all things considered.

Photo: Ben Wu mountainproject.com/photo/1…

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

If the Gunks was in the middle of Iowa and not a two hour drive from NYC, no one would go and you know it. 

Squamish is a 45-minute drive from my front door, but I much rather fly to the other side of the continent to climb at The Gunks!

Chattanooga

Khoiwrote:

Squamish is a 45-minute drive from my front door, but I much rather fly to the other side of the continent to climb at The Gunks!

I’m sure the Gunks is fantastic.. but this is a ridiculous statement haha. 

Seriously Mark, The Loaf?

The only thing world class about the Alabama Hills is the view...   

Since when would "Yosemite" or "Indian Creek" count as a crag?  Cookie Cliff is a crag, Supercrack Buttress seems like a crag, maybe even Pywiack Dome (really?) is a crag.  Yosemite is an 1100 square mile park.  Indian Creek is an expansive desert drainage with hundreds of distinct cliffs.  The titular prompt is more interesting if we use a narrower definition of "crag."  

JaredGwrote:

Since when would "Yosemite" or "Indian Creek" count as a crag?  Cookie Cliff is a crag, Supercrack Buttress seems like a crag, maybe even Pywiack Dome (really?) is a crag.  Yosemite is an 1100 square mile park.  Indian Creek is an expansive desert drainage with hundreds of distinct cliffs.  The titular prompt is more interesting if we use a narrower definition of "crag."  

I agree with this distinction. Is a "crag" a climbing area, or a single specific cliff. Yosemite, Indian Creek, and Squamish are pretty clearly among the best trad climbing areas in the world, and they also contain some single cliffs that may be among the best single cliffs in the world for trad cragging. (Cat Wall at the Creek could be an example).

If we are talking specific cliffs though, that opens up the competition to include some smaller areas that are comprised of a single world class cliff. The quality of that single cliff is there, but there just isn't the quantity to compare to some vast area like Indian Creek.  Single-cliff contenders in the US would include Trout Creek, Oak Creek Waterfall, and T-Wall. Talking about single cliffs does skew the competition to really long unbroken single cliffs like the Trapps. Just since it gets points for quantity of classics, while still being a single cliff.

There is also the question of height. Is a "crag" something that is specifically cragging size? i.e about 1-3 pitches. Does it no longer count as a crag if it is a tall multipitch wall? Is El Cap or Middle Cathedral a "crag"? If we do include taller cliffs and wanted choose a single formation (cliff/peak/etc) as the best "crag" in North America for traditional free climbing, I'd have to choose the Stawamus Chief in Squamish. But it is perhaps too tall and extensive to be a "crag".

Kris, I was wondering if anyone would catch that! LOL. How is that great pup of yours doing? 

Mark Frumkinwrote:

Kris, I was wondering if anyone would catch that! LOL. How is that great pup of yours doing? 

Pup is awesome. A grown man now...

Got rid of Barbara's sport car and my Tacoma. She works from home, probably permanently. So, I bought a Rubicon/Recon. Nothing radical, but good off the shelf. The pic of Max is on a trip going over Goler Cyn/Mengle pass, Trona to DV.

OT though. No crags there, although coming down into DV from the west is drop dead beautiful...

JaredGwrote:

Since when would "Yosemite" or "Indian Creek" count as a crag?  Cookie Cliff is a crag, Supercrack Buttress seems like a crag, maybe even Pywiack Dome (really?) is a crag.  Yosemite is an 1100 square mile park.  Indian Creek is an expansive desert drainage with hundreds of distinct cliffs.  The titular prompt is more interesting if we use a narrower definition of "crag."  

To me Cochise is a crag and so is Mt Lemmon, if I was local it would be different

Fairview dome is a crag? Pretty dope crag! 

M Mwrote:

To me Cochise is a crag and so is Mt Lemmon, if I was local it would be different

Hard rule -- if you have to drive between two climbs, they're not at the same crag.

Soft rule -- if it would be unreasonable to leave your crag pack at the base of climb #1 when you go to climb #2, then the two climbs are not at the same crag.

Convenient proxy -- the lowest sub-area level on MP is a crag.  This is a sub-area that lists routes, but no further sub-areas, underneath it.

So I'd say El Cap Base routes -- Southwest Base -- slack to West Buttress would count as a crag.  Multi-pitch cliffs with long walk-offs are questionable.

JaredGwrote:

Hard rule -- if you have to drive between two climbs, they're not at the same crag.

Soft rule -- if it would be unreasonable to leave your crag pack at the base of climb #1 when you go to climb #2, then the two climbs are not at the same crag.

Convenient proxy -- the lowest sub-area level on MP is a crag.  This is a sub-area that lists routes, but no further sub-areas, underneath it.

So I'd say El Cap Base routes -- Southwest Base -- slack to West Buttress would count as a crag.  Multi-pitch cliffs with long walk-offs are questionable.

I like this. The Euro term "sector" would also be appropriate. This also levels the playing field between small high quality cliffs and really long cliffs like the Trapps.

If we are looking at this more rigid, smaller-sector definition of a crag, my vote for the best trad crags for density and quality are the Spiders Web and the main wall at Trout Creek.

The Waterfall

Agree with previous post From Jarod.   Since we are 6 pages into this thread, maybe start a new one with the new definitions of Craig in place?   I view a Craig a bit differently than some... something friends and family can easily get to for a day+ of climbing.   Bonus points for great Camping or other activities nearby like swimming or Mtn biking.   A local social outlet as well.  Perfect example is city of rocks,  Climbing, camping, and hot springs.  Or monument valley, Moab, climbing, biking, cool vibe in Moab.