Rope Unstuck: Is it still safe?

John Reevewrote:

If I had to make a guess, in the process of yarding on it, you pulled it back and forth across an edge while loaded a bunch of times, which abraided it until there was enough gone that the rest could snap.

The problem with that theory is that moving a stuck rope back and forth under load while trying to free it is not typical. The normal method to free a rope by sideways directional movement would be to flick it unloaded. I've only climbed at red rocks a couple of times, but never saw an edge sharp enough to cut a rope under body weight. It is sandstone. So sharp edges are unlikely. But anything is possible

John Pencawrote:

The problem with that theory is that moving a stuck rope back and forth under load while trying to free it is not typical. The normal method to free a rope by sideways directional movement would be to flick it unloaded. I've only climbed at red rocks a couple of times, but never saw an edge sharp enough to cut a rope under body weight. It is sandstone. So sharp edges are unlikely. But anything is possible

Fair enough... but this isn't a typical outcome.  

I could be way wrong... I have only failed to travel to Red Rock (though I have tried) and thus have no experience on the rock there  :D

+1 for snagging the tape and shifted sheath. 

But let’s assume, the anchor was actually a razorblade so that it was possible for three guys to sever a foot off by yanking it. Still no problem. 

I would climb on that rope. 

Alec Baker wrote:

What did the severed end look like? Lots of loose fraying fibers?

Sorry guys i overstepped my post limit early in the discussion yesterday. The core had strands going everywhere but the sheath looked pretty clean. To go off what Greg said, the rope came from the factory with big bulky Maxim brand shrink wrap on the ends. My guess is that got bunched up at the anchors and stuck, after we all yanked it down it took the shrink wrap and blew out the end and moved the sheath. I wish I had had the foresight to take pictures and will definitely do so next time some horribly stupid thing like this comes up.

Austin Frekingwrote:

next time some horribly stupid thing like this comes up.

I wouldn't call it stupid. It's just something that is extremely unusual.

It was suggested that maybe the rope was moved back and forth under load. True or not?

John Pencawrote:

I wouldn't call it stupid. It's just something that is extremely unusual.

It was suggested that maybe the rope was moved back and forth under load. True or not?

I would say this is untrue. I tried by myself for one sustained tug, then asked for help and we gave it one sustained tug. I'm very skeptical that with that little of movement occurring the rope would have cut after doing more research.

The only feasible thing it could have been caught on was the hangers up top, or some rock right next to the anchors and everybody has been pretty spot on when saying Solar Slab doesn't have many sharp features especially on the first pitch.

Austin Frekingwrote:

The only feasible thing it could have been caught on was the hangers up top, or some rock right next to the anchors and everybody has been pretty spot on when saying Solar Slab doesn't have many sharp features especially on the first pitch.

Was the rope run through the hangers? Or, if there are chains/rings/whatever, was it run through that?

It sounds silly, but I saw a rap rope get hopelessly stuck when the climbers ran it through the hangers because "all those chain links and the rings at the bottom of them are potential points of failure".

Gunkiemikewrote:

Was the rope run through the hangers? Or, if there are chains/rings/whatever, was it run through that?

It sounds silly, but I saw a rap rope get hopelessly stuck when the climbers ran it through the hangers because "all those chain links and the rings at the bottom of them are potential points of failure".

I hope they weren't rapping off a rope run through the hangers, but that is most likely what happened given recent posts by the OP, which would be a big no-no.. 

I don't remember if the rappel station had chains, rings, or just hangers. This happened at the end of December 2020, well after dark, after helping out a couple other parties who had troubles with ropes, and thus creating a rappelling supergroup. I started this thread because I'm trying to figure out if I should throw my brand new rope in the garbage because of a strange event. That being said, 3 of our 6 folks are certified canyoneering and climbing guides and the remaining folks rappelling with us all had sufficient experience to not be dumb. I can say confidently that the rappel was not set up in some ridiculous haphazard way, and the equipment provided on the wall was utilized appropriately and safely. If there were chains we ran them through the bottom links, if it was just hangers at the rappel station then that's what we rapped off of, if there were rappel rings at the bottom of a chain that's what we used. 

I think the consensus is that you do not have a freakily bad brand new rope that broke, and your rope is fine to continue using.  If still in doubt, bounce test a few times just off the ground in a few spots with your rope set up as a top rope.  
if it separates, go buy a lottery ticket and report back!  Otherwise enjoy 

Mark Pilatewrote:

I think the consensus is that you do not have a freakily bad brand new rope that broke, and your rope is fine to continue using.  If still in doubt, bounce test a few times just off the ground in a few spots with your rope set up as a top rope.  
if it separates, go buy a lottery ticket and report back!  Otherwise enjoy 

My philosophy with climbing gear is if in doubt retire it. Otherwise one will always be questioning it to keep one alive. Bounce tests on a top rope don't generate a force anywhere close to a lead fall.

Of course John.  The bounce test - with 4 friends if you want, is not intended to simulate a lead fall, it’s to reproduce the mystery.   Which is not really a mystery.  I agree that  If he has doubts he should not climb on it.  But I will volunteer to take that new rope and test whip it for a few days, and certify this is all much ado about nothing and send it back to him, or...send it to whoever wants it (I’d keep it myself, but I have plenty of ropes and am not in need of gear). 

Not trying to be dismissive here, it’s just that I am confident that this is not a defective new rope, and I am experienced at drop tests and equipment tests and am willing to put my money and time where my mouth is to put this to rest.  

I’d whip on it. If you dont want it any more ill take it off your hands.

Mark Pilatewrote:

  My $50 says sheath/core shift over tension cut.   Some mystery edge may have presented itself around the anchor, but I still think my money is safe.

 

If the sheath alone broke the core fibres at the damaged end would probably be similar to those at the intact end of the rope.ie fibre ends melted together.

i shorewrote:

If the sheath alone broke the core fibres at the damaged end would probably be similar to those at the intact end of the rope.ie fibre ends melted together.

And what would the source of heat be for that melting?

Post a photo of both ends 

Strictly anecdotal here, oh internet judges rendering judgement on something you didn't see under circumstances you have literally no way of knowing. 

Snap, judgement, you might even call it (cough).

Pulling rap ropes on a popular multipitch in Yosemite, way popular. Rope pull stops just before it would have popped through the rings, maybe 10 feet short. The two of us could not dislodge it. In the grand scheme of things, it was my turn to go back up and correct. I was tired as it was a long route, and it was getting dark. Using the 2nd rope I went on lead, and re-led the pitch, placing pro as I went. I did yard on the stuck rope though all the cruxy parts and even some of the cruiser parts. I just wanted our rope back.

Something felt weird when I was weighting the stuck rope, hard to describe. You know how ropes can sometimes vibrate under a load? Well this rope has some weird vibe tension in it.

When I got up to the anchor? The last, oh I dunno, 8 inches or whatever, had somehow perfectly caught itself in this little v-shaped deformity. It wasn't a crack, it was more of a weird shape forming a lip on part of the ledge and the rope ending up in that v. It was a tiny feature no more than an inch wide. If someone had pointed it out earlier in the day and said, 'that thing can catch a rope' I would have literally laughed out loud at the notion, no fucking way!

And yet here I was staring at it. And to point, the v-slot, as innocuous as it was, had a bit of a razor edge right where the point was. And the effect of us yarding on it, both pulling and subsequently me using it for aid on the re-climb, had come to within a couple of strands of severing the rope. I was blown away, especially since I'd run the last, jees, 40 or 50 feet to the anchor, yarding all the while :)

I laughed up at the gods, reversed ends on the partially severed rope, re-rapped and we went about our business of getting down in the gathering gloom. 

So I'd say based on personal experience yes, absolutely, it is absolutely possible for 3 blokes pulling on a stuck rap rope to sever said rope, given the right circumstances.

To the OP? It was my rope and thus my decision. I cut off the last foot of the rope, melted the ends with a bic lighter and continued to use that rope as a lead line for the remainder of its service life.

i shorewrote:

If the sheath alone broke the core fibres at the damaged end would probably be similar to those at the intact end of the rope.ie fibre ends melted together.

Agree with your cogitation, i shore.   Simple inspection of the ends of the core strands will reveal the truth.   No fused core strand ends at all = rope was cut somehow and there is another piece somewhere.   Clumps of core strands, or all core strands fused at the end = pull and sudden snap-back damage 

Edit to Cherokee:  of course weird shit happens, that’s acknowledged and understood.  Anyone can break a rope over an edge.  Could even be the case on Solar slab here.  The point is that it’s very very unlikely, inspection and or testing can tell you the truth, and regardless of the cause of the mystery (cut or stuck)...like in your case, you marvel at it and continue climbing on the rope.  The odds of this being a new rope that separates under low loads is just not realistic.....even though yes, it’s possible.  So let’s test it.   Send it to the how not to high line guys.  And I’ll take any wagers anyone wants to place that there’s nothing wrong with the rope... unless it’s a Maxim lol.  (Refer to knuckleheaded thread on “bad” rope in gear reviews)

Unfortunately looking back at the  OP he "recut and cauterized the end of the rope ", so unless he kept or photographed the excised end my cogitation is useless.  :)

Ok Mark you’ll take any wagers on a rope you’ve never seen.

Yes weird shit happens. And it happens all the time, randomly. It cannot be ruled out given the utter lack of any evidence whatsoever. That is exactly my point. I’ve seen lots of weird  climbing shit go down. But I know for a fact a rope under load can be parted far easier than many might imagine. I personally would not dismiss it. All this said I’m not dismissing the rope tape theory either. :)