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Bolting Top Down
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We made this video and I'd love your feedback on ethics and technique. We are making 2021 version of Bolting Bible and want to include your thoughts. Cheers! |
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Nice video Ryan! For trundling, my 'rule' is if it would appear to fall off within a year or two of the route being climbed it should come down. Also, if the rock won't come off by just using the hammer or a small crowbar (the mini 8" ones) it probably won't come off anytime soon, or if it does will just be a pebble falling (aka wear helmets). I develop in limestone and carry a large 30" crowbar just to trundle larger blocks and flakes or to extend my reach to loose stuff slightly off route. Especially with newer routes and/or areas, climbers tend to travel off the route line looking for better stuff so even cleaning 5' away from the actual line can be helpful to prevent random climbers from pulling stuff off and then blaming the route developer. Also, it's on route developers to make sure the area below them is clear either with unobstructed visual/vocal confirmation and in more popular or traveled areas taping (caution tape) and signs (just a basic laminated sheet saying "route development: falling rock ahead") help a lot. Recreational liability plays a large role since trundling accepts non-natural changes to the rock face and directly makes the developer responsible for anything below them. Overall for ethics, it's important to connect with the LCO, land manager, or local climbers to understand what is acceptable or not in terms of development and how to legally do it. And when developing trails and introducing an area, making the access sustainable for years to come is one of the most important aspects of allowing people to climb. I'm probably forgetting stuff but hopefully this helps. |
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Hey Ryan, Love the videos you guys make! My only concern is, and I understand the cat is out of the bag already given the # of “how to bolt a sport route” videos online already, but is bolting something that should be taught online in a video versus in a 1-1 setting with a mentor? Is it something we really should encourage more people to take up? Specifically the audience a how to video is aimed at? The people who really want to do FA’s will find the resources (like the bolting bible) or hopefully a mentor without encouragement? Should we focus people’s psych towards upgrading the (tens? hundreds?) of thousands of routes with rusty hardware? |
NickMartelwrote: I've asked myself the same question. But honestly all the information on how to do it exists online prior to Ryan's videos. Ryan's videos definitely consolidate and distill down to the essentials which is nice but again lends itself to random yahoos with some money to throw around on a drill to go do as they please, but odds are these people would have found additional resources and the results from this are more based on the individual. I learned 98% of what I know about bolting, development, etc. via MP threads and other websites before Ryan's videos went up. I might be the exception as I also learned how to trad climb entirely via books and the internet, but learning things without a mentor is not always a recipe for disaster. It certainly would have made the learning curve gentler and made me avoid some mistakes early on though. |
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I think the entry cost for bolting does plenty for reducing random unexperienced people from getting out and putting stuff up. |
NickMartelwrote: These are some great points. As an anecdote personally I would rather just be upgrading routes that have outdated or rusty hardware. I think that requires much more experience than bolting routes. As someone who is really new to development I feel more comfortable being able to upgrade routes with various different hardware only after I placed some hardware of my own. I didn't see a path to feeling like I could upgrade/change out hardware on routes on my own or for others without bolting. Granted you can upgrade routes without changing out bolts specifically (e.g. eliminate mank from anchors). Maybe others have different experiences though. I do think you are right - having more people become proficient at replacing hardware would be helpful. But as long as people are putting up quality routes that will last, with respect to hardware, having more routes should benefit everyone. |
Desert Rock Sportswrote: A trad rack costs more than a bolting kit and that doesn't seem to stop inexperienced people from trad climbing. |
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Just don't do it. |
Desert Rock Sportswrote: Gotta disagree with this. There are plenty of noobs with enough disposable income to buy a $500 bolt rig. |
NickMartelwrote: Monetizing the sport many of us love is doing the sport no favors IMO Bolt on youtube bros! |
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Ryan -- thanks for the video and all the other resources you have created. Can you share your thoughts on the Liquid Rock epoxy that you are using? |
Brian Boydwrote: Nah, just do an entirely new testing line of just epoxies like this thread was looking for https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/120155211/the-glue-in-epoxy-thread.. Differences in the technical force/pressure data calculation stuff and how it applies to bolts especially if there are other epoxies that are cheaper but equally good i.e. AC100+ vs Sakrete epoxy. |
RJ Bwrote: There's no bolt on the market where the difference in the epoxy used makes any meaningful difference to their pull-out strength, most aren't even certified using epoxy anyway. The bolt being installed is tested and certified using polyester resin and quick-setting cement, I don't use any epoxies. To test all the various resin systems to get any useful and accurate information needs a lot of accuravy and carefully designed experiments. |
John Pencawrote: Yet the rate of new routes up choss isnt that high. The drill isn’t even a material cost compared to the bolts, ropes, ascenders, anchor hardware, shovels, crowbars, hammers, brooms, leaf blowers, sawzals. So it’s for sure more than $500. The time waste that developing is I think is more the issue. You have to first find the rock, then you gotta get to the top, then you gotta rap down the right line this alone can waste a day, then you have to clean. It can take days before you even put in a route if your not experienced. Then people realize they would rather climb than develop. Thanks for the videos. Honestly it doesn’t matter how you learn as long as people make significant efforts to actually understand it. I think it’s just as bad advice to go out with someone “experienced” to teach you how to bolt because one they might not be experienced and two they might still do questionable stuff. Using a diversity of sources to collaborate your understanding of a subject is always better than one single source. |
Trevor Taylorwrote: Very well said. |
Brian Boydwrote: He discusses this in the glue section of his Bolting Bible |
Desert Rock Sportswrote: I'd say, on top of the cost, and the other good points from previous replies about time and difficulty, the inherent danger will keep 95% of people interested in bolting completely away from it. I wish more people would take up bolting, even if just one route, so they can fully appreciate the effort involved. A guy I know used to hound me about giving him FA's, every fkn route, until he finally decided to bolt one himself. He was absolutely shocked at how difficult it was, and how it trashes you for the rest of the climbing trip (if you're bolting steep stuff like us). I even walked him to the cliff edge and showed him where to rapp in from so he didn't waste all day looking for the right spot, which he certainly would have. Needless to say, he never asked me for an FA again. I jokingly asked him if I could FA his one and only route, which he declined. Yeah, he retired from bolting, immediately! Lol!!! My two critiques from the video for Bobby: 1 - Tether all your tools, including your brush. Kind of shocked you dont tether your drill and caulk gun. First time one of those goes, you'll fix that quick. And RJ, maybe your Tripod needs one too! 2 - Get a blowout pump instead of the wasteful, consumable air duster cans. https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0136070 Also, you all should spread the word more on keeping plenty of rope protectors on hand to keep your fixed line safe. These are my favorites. Cheap, durable, and easy to take on and off. https://www.spiroll.com/store-2/#!/Climbing-&-Rescue-Products/c/18481079 |
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FA yo! |
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My only comment is that general best practice is to mark the bolts with a chalk dot first, then have somebody else do it and check your potential placements. I know that you had already toproped it, but multiple toprope ascents by different people often find different sequences. I've bolted a ton of routes by myself and am surprised at the different ways to climb and clip that other people find. I now try to set a toprope on it and let several people try it. We almost always end up moving a bolt or two. This is even more important for newbies bolting their first route |
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Cool video. It has some excellent advice regarding minding your rope from kicking rocks above and using removable anchors. Putting up routes is the fringe of the sport. It seems there has been a lot of recent media showcasing how routes come to life. Perhaps a few more folks will go out and buy drills but really the limiting factor is elbow grease. It is good to shed some light on standard practice as I think a lot of people develop routes in isolation. Also, a good reminder to the community as a whole to support their local access group. My only feedback is that there seems to be a ton of focus on the "Bolting" and not the broader scale vision of a quality line. You touched on a lot of it, in the ground up video but maybe getting some input from developers across the country, on their processes and vision. Just an idea. Keep up the good work.
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Additionally, if you are bolting a layback, put the bolt in the face *opposite* where your feet are pressing. I second tethering all tools, why even use an air pump? Just get a small piece of flexible tubing to clean out the holes. Third, clean to a fault (the huge scar on my leg says so). If you are taller than 5'9" reach to where you might want to clip, then move down 4-6 inches. It's not that difficult gentlemen. Drill on the way up, set the glue-ins on the way down, quickly. And don't forget your rag- this last one is for whomever bolted "The Altar" at The Dry in AZ. |
