Injury and inexperience, what could I have done better?

Yesterday a group of friends and I found ourselves watching a party of three do everything wrong, which resulted in two broken ankles. I share this in hopes to get advice, input, and maybe start a discussion about what can be done to prevent these things from happening. I doubt there will be an official report of this accident, as the attitudes of those involved lead me to believe so.

Climbing at Med Wall in San Antonio, a party of three arrived full of bullheaded machismo and started harnessing up. The ring leader of them started up a climb, and at a ledge asked what like he was on and the grade. We told him it's an 11b called here's to swimming with bow legged women. Saying that it was too hard, he bailed, asking where an easier route was. We pointed them to a 5.8 next to us and we started to climb, taking little notice of them really. 

As I finished the climb one of them asked if he could climb in his shoes, pointing to what looked like skating shoes. I told him you could try but it'll be hard, and he decided to go for it. After my friend climbed the 10a we were on, the guy starts up Texas Caterpillar, and at the first bolt he back clips. I stop him and have him correct it, I explain why it's wrong and what could happen. He seems to get it so he carries on up the slab, back clipping again at the second bolt. Again I have him fix it. The belayer then explains it's the climbers first time rock climbing. Realising the gravity of the situation unfolding I look to the belayer, who has way too much slack out and is taking his brake hand off the rope to give and pull slack. I attempt to correct him, teaching him PBUS, but I look back again and he's still dropping the brake strand to adjust his grip.

 At this point I get more invested in what's going on, so I look up to the climber who's harness has slipped below his waist with the leg loops hanging below his knees. I immediately stop him. At this point I'm looking at their harnesses which are cheap webbing harnesses you might find on the Wish app. I briefly discuss with my friends and we agree we should intervene. I stop the climber and start talking him through adjusting his harness and realize there are no gear loops, and he has a mismatch of draws, sewn cord slings, and spare biners clipped to the swami and belay loop. All shiny and new.

 With every detail I see it becomes more and more apparent these guys have no clue what they're doing and I start to insist that the climber be lowered to properly fit his harness. The belayer starts getting agitated saying he won't lower him, he's not coming down, he's not going to fall. Realising I may be making the situation worse by causing an altercation I turn to my friends who agree, with dismay, that we should move on as this seems out of our control.

Later, my friend hikes the mile to the trailhead to use the restroom and on her way sees the woman of the party (who was not climbing and seemed to be the girlfriend of the belayer) frantically asking where the parking lot is as her friend fell and broke both ankles. Turns out she had gone to Academy Sports to buy a dolly to cart her injured friend out. 

I feel as though retreating from the situation may have been an act of cowardice on my part, but on the other hand I realize that there was nothing I could do short of using force. Obviously I'm not responsible for the accident, but I do feel I could have done more to stop it. I come here for input from other climbers who may have been in a similar situation, and hopefully to learn what I could do better next time to help prevent injury or worse.

Thanks in advance, and please, please stay safe out there!

**Edit: some of the information I have given may not be completely accurate, see the comment below by Ryan to hear a more accurate account of the injury itself**

Hey Isaac, 

I was at Med Wall yesterday as well and witnessed a big fall involving two VERY inexperienced climbers which resulted in what appeared to be a broken ankle and perhaps a broken rib or two. However, this was further down on Buddha Belly wall. The two were on a route that was obviously waaaaay above their skill level, the belayer had about 10’ of slack at her feet, and when the guy fell he immediate inverted and stopped about 4’ short of the ground before cracking open his melon. He wasn’t wearing a helmet.
I too had similar feelings to yours while watching them. My climbing partner and I were watching them for quite a while before the fall thinking “wow, this is going to be bad.” I always struggle with my obligation to intervene when people aren’t being safe. 

M Appelquist wrote:

Curiosity got me: Is the injured party the same as the belayer in the story?

Also, maybe post in “Injuries and accidents”?

We never found out which one got injured as we didn't witness it, and I think it could have been either one of them with equal probability. 

I did think of posting this there, but I decided general climbing would better fit as it's not an actual injury report and more of a problem that may plague climbing in general. If this notion gets more traction I'll make the move.

Ryan Thorntonwrote:

Hey Isaac, 

I was at Med Wall yesterday as well and witnessed a big fall involving two VERY inexperienced climbers which resulted in what appeared to be a broken ankle and perhaps a broken rib or two. However, this was further down on Buddha Belly wall. The two were on a route that was obviously waaaaay above their skill level, the belayer had about 10’ of slack at her feet, and when the guy fell he immediate inverted and stopped about 4’ short of the ground before cracking open his melon. He wasn’t wearing a helmet.
I too had similar feelings to yours while watching them. My climbing partner and I were watching them for quite a while before the fall thinking “wow, this is going to be bad.” I always struggle with my obligation to intervene when people aren’t being safe. 

Thank you!! I seem to stand corrected here. We were at metro wall when it happened, and only heard the details of the accident so I'm glad you can flesh that out. I felt obligated to post what I saw, as it truly was disturbing to see.

Isaac Koernerwrote:

Thank you!! I seem to stand corrected here. We were at metro wall when it happened, and only heard the details of the accident so I'm glad you can flesh that out. I felt obligated to post what I saw, as it truly was disturbing to see.

Yea, I was standing on the route next to the party when it happened. Saw the whole thing. DM if you’d like more details, but it was bad. Easily one of the craziest things I’ve ever seen in-person.  

Try not to be so hard on yourself? Be happy you avoided a physical confrontation?

You can't stop stupid. You made a reasonable attempt to keep them safe; after that they are responsible for their actions.

I didn't know there is anything to climb in San Antonio other than buildings.

Isaac Koernerwrote:

 Turns out she had gone to Academy Sports to buy a dolly to cart her injured friend out. 

Thanks for sharing Isaac.  I was climbing with Ryan At Buddha Wall.  Saw the numerous shenanigans leading up to the fall.  Witnessed the end of the fall and the aftermath.  Ryan unfortunately saw the whole thing.

Like many I struggle with when to correct people.  If it’s a climbing partner us double checking and correcting each other comes naturally.  If it’s another party the corrections can be awkward at best.

It seems elitist but I only correct other people that seem to know what they’re doing when it comes to rock climbing.  I’ll overcome the awkwardness and go talk to them about what I perceive as a mistake. With the group at Buddha Wall Saturday their mistakes we’re too numerous to count.  It’s impossible to teach someone how to rock climb in a short conversion.  

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

Well it sounds like it wasn’t a complete shit show, I mean they did manage to self rescue.  

I didn’t witness the self rescue attempt, but everything leading up to it was indeed a complete shit show. 

Was it a furniture dolly? Those straps are helpful (like my comment).

Ryan Thorntonwrote:

Yea, I was standing on the route next to the party when it happened. Saw the whole thing. DM if you’d like more details, but it was bad. Easily one of the craziest things I’ve ever seen in-person.  

Might be helpful to share the details here. If they were clipping bolts on a slab, why were there broken ankles?

For crap sake, people? When did cowardice become the norm??!?

YES I have a huge "advantage" over any guy out there, and I realize being a dinky old lady isn't going to set guys off the way a guy saying anything at all would, but.. 

That still leaves all of you not stepping in, when a 4'11" almost 64 year old lady... does. 

If it's me, and I'm not alone with a gang of drunk guys with knives in an alley? Just run of the mill total cluelessness at a crag?

You bet your ass everything I was doing would come to a screeching halt and I'd intervene. Then, it becomes a decision to walk people through this thing we love...or not. But it has to be made absolutely clear to people that they are endangering themselves and others, truly life and death in the blink of an eye. 

And guys, all it takes, sometimes, is just one person objecting, even gently, for others to do the same. When every one around you says the same thing? And follows it up with the why and how? It then becomes a little easier to not do the stupidity and still save face. 

Yeah, I will risk the ugliness of them not listening, laughing at me, a fist to the face... 

It's still better than the ugliness of dead.

Kudos to those who did what they did, in this case!

For the record, I've flat out yelled at people twice. Intervened....geez, maybe five times, out climbing. Day to day stuff? Dunno how many times, but I've literally inserted myself between an antagonist and someone else a few times. Ironically, the stuff at the crag isn't usually dangerous to bystanders, or a giant life and death adrenaline rush, lol! That's what yelling/intervening is meant to avoid, that splat event that hurts all of us, even sitting at home.

The climbing ones all ended okay, and, a few times, meant simply graciously helping noobs, who gratefully accepted. Yeah, sucks to give up my climbing, but that's still better than hearing someone crash and burned.

That, breaks my heart. 

Best, Helen

Hum.

From my perspective, you did everything one could reasonably expect from a stranger witnessing the gong show. You tried as best you could to highlight how/what was wrong & why in a non-confrontational way. If they didn't take the advice, and were in too deep to even realize that you were doing them a potentially life/injury saving favor, at some point it's their problem. I don't think you have to be responsible of other people above their own self. At some point, you can't fix stupid.

Somewhat sad to say, but broken ankles aren't that bad, but still bad enough so that MAYBE the injured & his friend try to seek expertise about technical climbing before trying it again. If reasonable intervention by an obviously more qualified climber couldn't shed light into what was wrong, perhaps an actual accident was the only thing that could. Maybe they were just an accident waiting to happen, either that day or the next.... Maybe that all falls into the you live & you learn category.

I think that after your intervention failed to show results, and danger was still very obviously present, I personally would have just left the wall. Obviously if an accident happens next to me, I'd fell a duty to help regardless of how predictable it was and what caused it. But I don't think not hanging around, in order to not be in that position in the first place, is reprehensible. And as you rightly mentioned, getting confrontational and forceful intervention would likely only make things worst with someone already on the sharp end. I think you were just in a dead-end at that point....

EDIT: the one thing you MAY have tried to do differently may have been to try to appeal to other members in the group who may have had more sense/reserves about the safety of what was going on. E.g. maybe his girlfriend had more sense, or may have been more open to hearing you out. And her being "in the group" may have meant she would have been in a better position to get some sense into them.... just a thought.

Old lady Hwrote:

For crap sake, people? When did cowardice become the norm??!?

YES I have a huge "advantage" over any guy out there, and I realize being a dinky old lady isn't going to set guys off the way a guy saying anything at all would, but.. 

That still leaves all of you not stepping in, when a 4'11" almost 64 year old lady... does. 

If it's me, and I'm not alone with a gang of drunk guys with knives in an alley? Just run of the mill total cluelessness at a crag?

You bet your ass everything I was doing would come to a screeching halt and I'd intervene. Then, it becomes a decision to walk people through this thing we love...or not. But it has to be made absolutely clear to people that they are endangering themselves and others, truly life and death in the blink of an eye. 

And guys, all it takes, sometimes, is just one person objecting, even gently, for others to do the same. When every one around you says the same thing? And follows it up with the why and how? It then becomes a little easier to not do the stupidity and still save face. 

Yeah, I will risk the ugliness of them not listening, laughing at me, a fist to the face... 

It's still better than the ugliness of dead.

Kudos to those who did what they did, in this case!

For the record, I've flat out yelled at people twice. Intervened....geez, maybe five times, out climbing. Day to day stuff? Dunno how many times, but I've literally inserted myself between an antagonist and someone else a few times. Ironically, the stuff at the crag isn't usually dangerous to bystanders, or a giant life and death adrenaline rush, lol! That's what yelling/intervening is meant to avoid, that splat event that hurts all of us, even sitting at home.

The climbing ones all ended okay, and, a few times, meant simply graciously helping noobs, who gratefully accepted. Yeah, sucks to give up my climbing, but that's still better than hearing someone crash and burned.

That, breaks my heart. 

Best, Helen

Hey Helen,

Yes I do think that you being an older woman makes things different. Boys will be boys, and having another dude step in may infringe on some men's sense of masculinity/virility or whatever. Your willingness to intervene is commandable, and just to be clear I do think some intervention is the right thing to do... but at some point what do you do? Jump on the belayer's rope & force-take all the slack, before you get punched by his friend and then the climber gets truly dropped? By willing to do good in what is a delicate situation (climber on the sharp end), I do feel there's a chance one may end up making things worst than they actually are. Just my 2 cents....

Helen, with all due respect it seems the OP made every reasonable effort to educate these guys. There is a difference between being a coward and letting folks do there stoopid thing. What was the OP supposed to do? I think you are off base with your rant.

I'd have done exactly what you did, made my best effort to offer up instruction and advice. When it became clear that the situation was hopeless I'd have walked away. If I were your friend, I might have asked the woman if they needed any help getting the bonehead out. But I don't know the area. If it's easy terrain, a good trail or walkway, I'd have left them to their own devices.

I hate having to intervene in a situation like that, but I see it as an obligation. As, obviously, do you. That becomes clear when you mention "becoming more invested in the situation." But it was not an act of cowardice to see that there was nothing you could do to help, and leave. I'd call that common sense. There's not much point in standing there, helpless, to watch the inevitable happen.

John Penca got it right. Sometimes you just can't stop stupid. 

Franck Veewrote:

Hum.

From my perspective, you did everything one could reasonably expect from a stranger witnessing the gong show. You tried as best you could to highlight how/what was wrong & why in a non-confrontational way. If they didn't take the advice, and were in too deep to even realize that you were doing them a potentially life/injury saving favor, at some point it's their problem. I don't think you have to be responsible of other people above their own self. At some point, you can't fix stupid.

Somewhat sad to say, but broken ankles aren't that bad, but still bad enough so that MAYBE the injured & his friend try to seek expertise about technical climbing before trying it again. If reasonable intervention by an obviously more qualified climber couldn't shed light into what was wrong, perhaps an actual accident was the only thing that could. Maybe they were just an accident waiting to happen, either that day or the next.... Maybe that all falls into the you live & you learn category.

I think that after your intervention failed to show results, and danger was still very obviously present, I personally would have just left the wall. Obviously if an accident happens next to me, I'd fell a duty to help regardless of how predictable it was and what caused it. But I don't think not hanging around, in order to not be in that position in the first place, is reprehensible. And as you rightly mentioned, getting confrontational and forceful intervention would likely only make things worst with someone already on the sharp end. I think you were just in a dead-end at that point....

Lol, you're kinder than I, but yes, there is a point to exit. 

But there seems to be more than one party who saw this shit show? 

Kids were involved in some of the times my partner and I stepped in. 

That's changed also, though. It did used to be the case that neighbors and sometimes even total strangers, watched out for others, especially kids about to do something over the top stupid. A fine line of judgement...before helicopter parenting.

Sometimes all you can do is rejoice that there are now less people crowding yer routes. Oh, and the new name for "Here's to swimming with bow legged women" is [Redacted]. Next time simply speed dial Helen so she can give them advice and talk them down, or just link to this or the other 1000 similar MP threads. 

Advice freely given: Yer welcome. 

SinRopa wrote:

I think my wife and I met your kindred spirit last week.  Crazy bat comes running up to my wife as she's TR belaying me, screeching about how she's being unsafe.  The cardinal sin?  Using an ATC instead of a grigri.

Lady seriously stood on the slack end (in crampons), then tried to take over the belay, then tried to put me on belay using slack on the other side of her feet.  Someone ended up literally carrying her off as she kept hollering up at me to not fall or I was gonna die.  Bizarre.

Later on we went back to the hotel and drilled some palm heel strikes and basketball-style box out drills in case it happened again the next day.

Lol.  Where did this happen?

One option to offer up here as a final attempt is to let them know that you are concerned about their safety and that you have seen people get seriously injured and/or killed doing what they are doing and you'd like to show them how to do it better. Approaching out of concern and highlighting the safety risk can make a difference. Too often people do what SinRopa talks about below. People can and have died from behavior like what was described here, so that is something to think about as well. If someone is being that unsafe, and you watched and said nothing and had to watch them die, how would that make you feel?

Edited the last part out- I think I misread.

SinRopa wrote:

I think my wife and I met your kindred spirit last week.  Crazy bat comes running up to my wife as she's TR belaying me, screeching about how she's being unsafe.  The cardinal sin?  Using an ATC instead of a grigri.

Lady seriously stood on the slack end (in crampons), then tried to take over the belay, then tried to put me on belay using slack on the other side of her feet.  Someone ended up literally carrying her off as she kept hollering up at me to not fall or I was gonna die.  Bizarre.

Later on we went back to the hotel and drilled some palm heel strikes and basketball-style box out drills in case it happened again the next day.