Mountaineering rant...

Just a random rant because I still see the same kind of topic popping up everywhere (on MP & others websites/forums). 

I m talking about the kind of topic saying "I m gonna climb Rainier in 1 month, give me advices"... or the European equivalent ' I ll try to climb Mont-blanc in 2 weeks, need advices"...

Honestly I have less and less tolerance for those questions... Why on earth don't you build up skills and experience first?
I especially only see this on iconic peaks with none technical routes. 

No one is gonna ask " Just starting climbing, want to climb 5.15 in 3 days, need advices"... or "just starting mix climbing, how can I climb M8 in 2 months?..."
Just because people think that climbing those peaks is just a hard walk...

Start slow, take your time, build skills, put the work and you will not be asking this kind of questions...

To rephrase the question: why don’t naive inexperienced people have a greater respect and understanding for the time and effort required to achieve their goals?

My guess is that it’s because they are naive and inexperienced. Learning what you don’t know takes some time as well. Just because someone sets an unrealistic goal at the beginning doesn’t mean that it won’t start them down the path towards gaining the skills they need. 

Nate Awrote:

To rephrase the question: why don’t naive inexperienced people have a greater respect and understanding for the time and effort required to achieve their goals?

My guess is that it’s because they are naive and inexperienced. Learning what you don’t know takes some time as well. Just because someone sets an unrealistic goal at the beginning doesn’t mean that it won’t start them down the path towards gaining the skills they need. 

Yes but what I m referring to is not people setting big goals and looking for proper ways to achieved it, this is highly respectable.
What I m referring to is people saying " I know nothing about mountaineering, I ve never walk with crampons in my life but I just booked guiding services to climb Denali in a month, need advices!"
 You have tons of people saying that here and elsewhere. 

This I find it dumb (if I m being nice...)

You'll see this in pretty much any field of interest/hobby. 

There will always be people who want to shorten the road to a particular experience and in mountain climbing this is climbing high but reasonably easy routes. The bucket-list culture of our times makes this even more terrible, and the whole commercialisation and accessibility of guided ascents has made this possible, in that even moderately fit and healthy people can be hauled up the Mont Blancs/Grossglockners/Mt. Rainiers of this earth via their normal routes with just about no experience whatsoever. 

To me, the whole point of mountaineering is a kind of apprenticeship/learning experience, building skills and being able to make unguided ascents on increasingly tough routes, but most normal people don't want to climb and the few normal people who do see it as a one-off experience to be done with the least amount of effort on their side. 

Victor Machtelwrote:

To me, the whole point of mountaineering is a kind of apprenticeship/learning experience, building skills and being able to make unguided ascents on increasingly tough routes, but most normal people don't want to climb and the few normal people who do see it as a one-off experience to be done with the least amount of effort on their side. 

Spot-on!

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Reach my post limit... to reply to "not hobo greg" below: 

I m not even against guides, I think its great to hire a guide. 

Just saying that if the first (and maybe only) time you hire a guide it to go to Rainier or Denali, I think you should really ask yourself some questions.

Fabien and Victor, the way I have always framed this in my mind: I wanted to be competent. I know this may perhaps (is) a weakness in me, but I would never, and never have, hired a guide for climbing. I wanted my own skills and those of my partner and I always preferred a partner who's skills were in league with my own - not too much , uh, weaker, for the lack of a better term, and not too much stronger either. We... climb and we climbed, together, pooling our friendship audacity and tenacity to combat the fear. I doesn't matter to me whether its alpine, plain ole mountaineering, peak bagging, big walls, long trad routes, sport climbing, what have you. From my earliest notions of climbing as a young teenager, I wanted to be competent, to have those skills. 

As I got older and eventually matured as well, I came to realize its the actual climbing, and not the summit nor the post summit brag, that produces the real satisfaction. I know, I know, I heard it my whole life from all my predecessors both in climbing and in the wider world - its not the destination, but the journey that counts. I've always believed this, in my bones and I still do.

those who circumvent the journey to tag a summit? More power to them. Not my cuppa.

Fabien Mwrote:

Yes but what I m referring to is not people setting big goals and looking for proper ways to achieved it, this is highly respectable.
What I m referring to is people saying " I know nothing about mountaineering, I ve never walk with crampons in my life but I just booked guiding services to climb Denali in a month, need advices!"
 You have tons of people saying that here and elsewhere. 

This I find it dumb (if I m being nice...)

I agree with all of this but my point was that there is no reason to expect those people to know any better. 

A couple of observations:

The anal gear list questions. Some general questions are understandable but at times the micro nano nick picking questions are just silly. One really should not be buying much if any new gear when going to the hill. That is they should have already used the gear and know how it performs. 

Training. Some people advocate the need to train way too seriously. While I certainly do not advocate the Whillans approach of get in shape on the hike in and quit smoking once at base camp. But on the other hand, others have probably trained more to do the DC or Emmons route on Rainier than my partners and I did combined to do the Cassin Ridge on Denali.

That said, when questions do come up it is pretty easy to do triage, that is whether is worth answering. One of the last Denali gear list threads was pretty decent. 

To me it is like someone asking "how do I get a doctorate in two months".  One needs to put in the time learning; it doesn't come overnight.  Guided trips are a bit different, the best people to ask those questions to is the guide service, not an internet web site.

Fabien - 

I'm doing Rupal Face in 1 month, need advice. 

Best, 

Allen Sandersonwrote:

Training. Some people advocate the need to train way too seriously. While I certainly do not advocate the Whillans approach of get in shape on the hike in and quit smoking once at base camp. But on the other hand, others have probably trained more to do the DC or Emmons route on Rainier than my partners and I did combined to do the Cassin Ridge on Denali.. 

I think the training part is incredibly dependent on the person and how active they are already. You more than likely already have a better base level of fitness than a lot of these people do in their best day. I remember years back climbing Shasta with an experienced family member as my first 14k and getting my ass handed to me physically. I thought I was in decent shape as I was a very active skateboarder but I quickly learned that's not the same as being in mountain shape. I climbed Rainier a couple of years ago and a member of our party turned back once we hit 12k because he was out of shape. This was someone who had formerly climbed Aconcagua, Kilimanjaro as well as had run marathons but was no longer at that level of fitness. So once again it's entirely dependent on the person and I feel that the better shape that you're in the better experience you'll have on the mountain.

Fabien Mwrote:

Just a random rant because I still see the same kind of topic popping up everywhere (on MP & others websites/forums). 

I m talking about the kind of topic saying "I m gonna climb Rainier in 1 month, give me advices"... or the European equivalent ' I ll try to climb Mont-blanc in 2 weeks, need advices"...

Honestly I have less and less tolerance for those questions... Why on earth don't you build up skills and experience first?
I especially only see this on iconic peaks with none technical routes. 

No one is gonna ask " Just starting climbing, want to climb 5.15 in 3 days, need advices"... or "just starting mix climbing, how can I climb M8 in 2 months?..."
Just because people think that climbing those peaks is just a hard walk...

Start slow, take your time, build skills, put the work and you will not be asking this kind of questions...

Comparing Mt Rainier to climbing M8 or 5.15 is a little bit of a stretch, dont you think?

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

I’m all for it because it gives guides a profession.

Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against guides - they are among the best teachers for motivated individuals and they can be invaluable for people who want to push themselves. 

But the more 'industrial' side of guided ascents, just for list ticking's sake, would not be my cup of tea. 

My son started saving up to buy an excavator. A real one. As a preschooler. 

I didn't dissuade him. Eventually, his goals changed.

But, a working model of hydraulics was his fifth grade science project.

And, as an adult, his best buddy happened to be a Caterpillar mechanic. So, he got to play with a real one.

Twentyish years later, from that little kids big ideas? His wife bought him a remote control model excavator for Christmas last month.

He saved up, for everything that interested him, all his life, and became a SAR guy and an EMT2, with tech rescue included in both. And has no debts except a modest mortgage, in his mid twenties.

No need to piss on enthusiasm. Or daydreams. No telling where they will take you, as they morph over time.

Best, Helen

I will say, bucket list culture puts money in guides pockets. I mean hate it or love it, but we want guides to have clients

Mike-Mayhemwrote:

Comparing Mt Rainier to climbing M8 or 5.15 is a little bit of a stretch, dont you think?

You re right but for me the logic behind it is the same. 

Fabien Mwrote:

Start slow, take your time, build skills, put the work and you will not be asking this kind of questions...

So instead of Rainier, they’ll be asking what 3 season hiking boot to wear up Shasta. 

You should check out some hiking forums. People ask the same shit literally about going for a walk.

Also, you can’t build the skills without starting somewhere. A guided trip is a good way to start. Those guided trips/courses have a few prerequisites...now whether they are holding their clients to them, I can’t say. I’ve heard of people on Everest not knowing how to put on crampons. Maybe that was just the altitude.

I know those guided Rainier trips have a very low success rate from people who aren’t physically prepared. I have a friend who didn’t leave the shelter because he knew he wouldn’t make it, and only something like 3/10 in his group summited. Because they can’t descend without the guide, they get put in their sleeping bag and attached to a snow picket until the summit party heads down. LOL. 

Mike Swrote:

So instead of Rainier, they’ll be asking what 3 season hiking boot to wear up Shasta. 

You should check out some hiking forums. People ask the same shit literally about going for a walk.

Also, you can’t build the skills without starting somewhere. A guided trip is a good way to start. 

Sometimes people haven't done even day hikes but want to start mountaineering straight away, I still think it is nonsense...
No even talking about hiking but why not start with a smaller objective that rainier/denali/mont-blanc.
To real technical alpinists the normal routes to those high altitude highways is not even something that they would respect/give you credit for, to be honest...
For me the same idea would apply to hiking btw, if you have never done a 2 days hike in your life but are already buying gear for the PCT I think you re being pretty foolish as well.

Mike-Mayhemwrote:

Comparing Mt Rainier to climbing M8 or 5.15 is a little bit of a stretch, dont you think?

I think you’re being a bit too literal. 

Marc801 Cwrote:

I think you’re being a bit too literal. 

I dont really think so. Mt Rainer is an objective that is within reach for many entry level mountaineers. Same as Grand Teton is within reach for almost all entry level alpine climbers. How are people going to learn if they dont ask questions? Not everyone is lucky enough to have someone teach them the ropes.

5.15 and M8 are not obtainable for an entry level climber, for the most part.

I just watched this and found it pretty cool and very well made https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqCiRcfqnjU