Mountain Project sold again

The cats already out of the bag my peeps! Internet, social platforms, Instagram, vast amounts of information at your fingertips. My Project didn’t create this, it’s only a part of it. And if Mt Project wasn’t a thing, something else would be around to fill that void. And who’s to say whether that entity would be better or worse? Probably similar.

We’re fortunate to have someone like Nick at the helm, who does care about the future of Mt Project and has passed up other opportunities from companies that would more likely gut the useful information and privatize access at a premium to squeeze every nickel from it before discarding all efforts. He can’t maintain the status quo. Something has to change if Mt Project is to survive. Having it fall might be much, much worse as all the information would be pissed off into the void and create a power vacuum to be consumed by who knows what. This is the future whether you like it or not. Information for everything is now at your fingertips and no longer on the next page. That “is” the reality. How that’s going to look into the future is yet to be determined.

I have the same concerns as everyone else. But having been a user of OnX for several years now and in talking with those actually involved in the process, this is the direction I have come to understand.
Mt Project (Adventure Projects) cannot exist without user contributions and therefore access absolutely must (and by must I mean shall) remain a free resource. You will go online, or turn on the app and all the information will be there. In its current state, this is the “free” version. This will not change, ever!  What will (possibly) change is the addition of more features. Not things to make it easier to find crags or navigate approaches, making access easier, links to Instagram or other social media. That stuff already exists and is in full swing. More like access issues and closed area updates by the minute. Peregrine nesting etc.. Current road conditions, traffic, crag density, current and past fire perimeters, trail elevations and tracking, current storm and lightning tracking, privet or public access lands, topo overlays provided by guidebook authors, virtual tours, permits and camping reservations (book now feature), gas, food, water and retail maps etc...

These “extras” may require a subscription, but the routes database will not. Forums, except for lost and found, partner finder might go under the paywall, which will be the end of you trolls. But for the most part, nothing will change and you won’t have to pay unless you’re interested in the “extra/premium” content. None of this is happening anytime soon and OnX, who is owned by an avid climber, is definitely interested in what the community would like to see as far as “premium” features.

But none of this matters as the fear mongering, finger pointing, baseless speculation, assumptions and paranoia of the climbing worlds version of “toilet paper hoarders” continue to bow down to their god... Fear! 

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

These “extras” may require a subscription, but the routes database will not. Forums, except for lost and found, partner finder might go under the paywall, which will be the end of you trolls. But for the most part, nothing will change and you won’t have to pay unless you’re interested in the “extra/premium” content. None of this is happening anytime soon and OnX, who is owned by an avid climber, is definitely interested in what the community would like to see as far as “premium” features.

They should copy spotify's business model. They don't need to own the content, but they should be paying guidbook authors and others who update the site. Premium feature should be a PDF download of the guidebooks.

Also forums should not be a premium feature. the end of forums would mean the end of a lot of traffic on this site, which with ads would draw revenue.

I hope OnX likes Freedom.

Gumby boy kingwrote:

They should copy spotify's business model. They don't need to own the content, but they should be paying guidbook authors and others who update the site. Premium feature should be a PDF download of the guidebooks.

Also forums should not be a premium feature. the end of forums would mean the end of a lot of traffic on this site, which with ads would draw revenue.

For all we know, they might. Would be a good thing to brainstorm ideas for them to consider. I’m sure they would appreciate it.

Dan Cookseywrote:

I hope OnX likes Freedom.

OnX as far as I can tell loves freedom and is as almost as patriotic as Black Rifle Coffee Co. The opposite of Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, Google etc...

Dallin Careywrote:

Interesting definition of "Adventure", but its your opinion so you're allowed to define it as such for yourself. 

I didn't define anything.  Get a clue Dallin:

JJ Keller wrote:

The types of apps that onX offers are catered to GPS-dependent people who otherwise would not visit the remote places the apps guide them to.  Bringing onX into the world of climbing information will increase impacts to sensitive places and is against everyone’s best interest.

Protect wild places and public lands by opposing this ‘partnership

I feel you and had the same reaction -- who could miss the irony of advocating for "more people who experience their own off-the-beaten-path awakening?"  

But Mr. Suchoski is right -- the train has already left the station.  MP and OnX are merely part of a big complex that disseminates information, makes access easier, and ultimately degrades outdoor spaces.  That complex has deep roots in our insatiable "more, more, more" consumption culture.

I believe the future holds "improved" trails, rock stairways up to the cliff, built-up base areas, and indeed, for the places deemed worthy of protection, permit systems.  I, for one, am happy that permit systems exist in the US -- you can look to Europe for the alternative.

JJ Keller wrote:

No.  I take issue with using the information collected on this site to increase traffic, and therefore impacts in fragile or pristine areas.  I especially disagree with onX justifying the increased traffic by pretending they are creating support for public lands.  

Nailed it, IMO. As I wrote in the other thread, they are personally enriching themselves by pushing increased traffic to public/community areas -- commodifying something they don't own. The word that best applies is "externality" -- they reap $$ for increasing crowding while bearing none of the costs. This seems like a classic tragedy of the commons, where overuse of a shared resource destroys the resource. Climbers (both existing climbers and increasingly new climbers created predominantly through promotion) aren't making money from this, but corporations, shareholders, private equity, VC, and founders are, as they exploit the outdoors for-profit.

They started selling us out decades ago, but it gets worse every year. What used to be a legitimate, organic community activity that could provide a modest living for some, is now a fat revenue stream for making enterprising individuals rich. Look no further than the community rock gyms of 30 years ago which have largely died and been replaced by regional and national behemoths offering multi-million dollar investment opportunities for VC, PE, and founders, while churning through mostly minimum-wage, minimum-experience staff. That's what happened to climbing: soulless capitalist profiteering.

John Byrneswrote:

I didn't define anything.  Get a clue Dallin:

Please, show me where "outcome is in doubt" is.

Dallin Careywrote:

So the outdoors is just for you then JJ?

I think one can take an Edward Abbey view of the outdoors and express concern over how it is becoming tamed and commercialized without being guilty of hoarding it to themselves.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Your advocating for your unrestricted access. I am saying everyone should have access and if that means my access is reduced then so be it. Restricted access in this situation is in the eye of the beholder. People having no way to find rock climbs is in itself a form of restricted access. As for the enchantments I absolutely support the permit system. Everyone from casual hikers to hardcore alpine climbers should be able to enjoy the area, not just a select few. 

I also think good GPS makes for better access. The number of climbing areas/climbs that went up on private land/restricted land would have likely been less had people had better maps (infinite bliss comes to mind). 

Everyone already has access. These sites are just pointing everyone to the goods rather than letting exploration be the gate keeper of the outdoors. We are moving toward an “old faithful” model, where the best is made the daily centerfold on people’s Instagrams for a fleeting moment... for an ever increasing and indefinite number of people. Starts with sage brush, becomes a trail, turns into a wooden walkway... the experience and rawness is destroyed in the process.

C Gwrote:

Starts with sage brush, becomes a trail, turns into a wooden walkway... the experience and rawness is destroyed in the process.

Which eventually turns into either "No Trespassing", $25/night campsites, and/or timed entry reservations for a fee. The freedom of travel in the outdoors is slowly changing into something full of clueless urban tourists, reservations with fees, and various red tape due to commercialization and overpopulation. I really hate living in the 21st century most of the time.

The holy Proj
it will be caught again
bought, and sold, and bought again
the Proj is never free

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

For all we know, they might. Would be a good thing to brainstorm ideas for them to consider. I’m sure they would appreciate it.

They should just hire a consultant or Ibank to go over this stuff if they are serious about overhauling and making money. They are sitting on a mini gold mine in my opinion

Dallin Careywrote:

Please, show me where "outcome is in doubt" is.

You must have failed high school English.  What do you think "risk" means?  

Nick is probably laughing to the bank like he just broke his funny bone. Left the place all "woke" smh. Good for ya Nick I just hope you don't afford to buy it again one day.

John Byrneswrote:

I didn't define anything.  Get a clue Dallin:

Anytime you climb you encounter risks of some sort... even the approach can have risks, despite knowing the way, not to mention potential wildlife encounters.

Also, entry 2: "an exciting or remarkable experience."

Maybe you should just grow up and stop protecting your secret boys club with its childish no girls (a subjective "gumbis" in this case) allowed sign and everything else stereotypical about such a childish club.

The fact is climbing is growing and you can't stop it. You can try to slow it all you want, but you won't stop progress. These areas aren't your privately owned crags. Go run gym if you want ownership.

Encourage good stewardship of the land and teach people how to minimize their impact and how to fund or help with access projects and cleanups, but beyond that you're just being selfish and childish.

Brandon Danielwrote:

Anytime you climb you encounter risks of some sort... even the approach can have risks, despite knowing the way, not to mention potential wildlife encounters.

Also, entry 2: "an exciting or remarkable experience."

Maybe you should just grow up and stop protecting your secret boys club with its childish no girls allowed sign and everything else stereotypical about such a childish club.

The fact is climbing is growing and you can't stop it. You can try to slow it all you want, but you won't stop progress. These areas arent your privately owned crags. Go run gym if you want ownership.

Again, this isn’t about hoarding “secret” or “private” crags. It’s about thinking carefully about how masses of people are oriented towards and map onto limited and fragile resources. Is it obligatory that everything seen and found is documented and advertised? If one doesn’t document and publicize, are they really the villains in your mind? Sure, everyone has the right to find these places, but does everyone have the right (or duty) to spotlight them and send the world there?

No

C Gwrote:

 If one doesn’t document and publicize, are they really the villains in your mind?

lol, if you don't geotag your new bouldering proj on instagram, you're a bigot.

John Byrneswrote:

You must have failed high school English.  What do you think "risk" means?  

Risk is an exposure to something, generally something worth mitigating.

Outcomes are expected or actualized results. 

Outcomes which are in doubt are something you expected to happen but something is now putting it at risk of not being achieved.

I actually like your phrase for the experience of adventure btw.