Alpine tools with similar swing to cobras?

I’m in the market for a new pair of ice tools for alpine climbing. The routes I like to climb have long stretches of snow and moderate ice or mixed with steeper crux pitches. I have quarks now but don’t love the way they climb, especially when it gets harder than WI4 M5. They feel sloppy to me. I’ve used the cobras a bunch and love the way they swing. I don’t like how the wideness of the shaft prevents you from reaching hooks deeper in mid sized cracks. They also seem overpriced and I don’t like BD picks. Cassin x-all mountains are out.  I’ve looked at the north machines quite a bit but I haven’t had the chance to swing them. Any other tools I should be considering? 

Grivel north machines come to mind. Similar-ish swing to the BD - in between a nomic and a cobra. Definitely thinner and appropriate for alpine. 

I am sure some people have climbed very hard on north machines.   I find that the grip isn't as supportive as a quark/all mountain to use your example.  If steep ice/rock (getting pumped is the concern)

If you're super strong and not worried about the handles then I think north machines are great.  (And to be clear the handles are fine just not as supportive as other tools in the category)

greggryllswrote:

I am sure some people have climbed very hard on north machines.   I find that the grip isn't as supportive as a quark/all mountain to use your example.  If steep ice/rock (getting pumped is the concern)

If you're super strong and not worried about the handles then I think north machines are great.  (And to be clear the handles are fine just not as supportive as other tools in the category)

Bro, get gud.

Honestly consider the alpine version of the X-dream. I have climbed on cobras for 10 years or so and love the swing, I gave the X-dreams (non alpine version) a shot this season and was blown away by the fact that they swing nearly the same (in my opinion) to my cobras. I just wish I had a pick on the pommel (which the alpine version has). I don't get how such different tool geometry works nearly identically, but wow, they make it feel like cheating without having to practice hammering nails in to learn how to swing a nomic.

Jack Yipwrote:

Honestly consider the alpine version of the X-dream. 

I love the xdreams but being able to plunge the tool is big for me on snow. If i was after more sustained routes with less snow climbing, I would just rock my nomics

I second the comment on North Machines - they are great but the support is less than there is on the cobra. The Quantum Tech handle was better. 

I’ll admit my mistake here - I was thinking of the quantum techs and googled grivel tools.  Ive only climbed the quantum techs and thought they handled WI4 fine as well as m4-5. 

I'd avoid camp x lights if they are in the runnings.  Honestly, if you weren't a fan of quarks I feel like north machines are the obvious contender for an alpine tool.  I haven't used them on hard snow yet where plungability is really tested.  

Curious how the plastic grip will hold up as it feels a bit fragil.  

Having had the North Machine (Carbon Vario) for more than a year now, they seem to be holding up just fine. Friends who have had Quantum Tech (Colin - it's almost identical except for the head and the smaller hand support) for many years have had no issue with the handle - it's not that fragile. I don't like that there isn't an upper hand rest and I'd avoid the previous generation of hammer attachments - they were just fucking stupid.  Grivel... here is my rant on Grivel: Grivel make some of the best gear out there.  But they always (deliberately?) fuck one thing up. Just to say that perfection is possible but we choose not to attain it.  For the North Machine, it is the smaller hand rest. 

Graham Johnsonwrote:

Having had the North Machine (Carbon Vario) for more than a year now, they seem to be holding up just fine. Friends who have had Quantum Tech (Colin - it's almost identical except for the head and the smaller hand support) for many years have had no issue with the handle - it's not that fragile. I don't like that there isn't an upper hand rest and I'd avoid the previous generation of hammer attachments - they were just fucking stupid.  Grivel... here is my rant on Grivel: Grivel make some of the best gear out there.  But they always (deliberately?) fuck one thing up. Just to say that perfection is possible but we choose not to attain it.  For the North Machine, it is the smaller hand rest. 

good to know it's holding up and agreed on the smaller hand rest being annoying.

Quarks are the best tool on the market for harder alpine mixed climbing, in my opinion.  I don’t understand what you mean when you say that they feel “sloppy” to you.  Especially with, the trig-rests installed and head accessories removed, they are very easy to control for super precise placements.

Tools like the North Machine, Cobra, and All Mountain have a more open pick angle and more pick shift, when using the upper grip.  While they are all nice on ice, I don’t like using these tools for mixed climbing.

The BD Vipers are basically a hybrid of the Cobras and Quarks, if that is what you are looking for. 

If you’re worried about the carbon shaft on a North Machine (you shouldn’t be) but they do make the NM in the regular aluminum shaft. Kind of like a Matrix Tech vs a Quantum Tech. 

Graham Johnsonwrote:

Having had the North Machine (Carbon Vario) for more than a year now, they seem to be holding up just fine. Friends who have had Quantum Tech (Colin - it's almost identical except for the head and the smaller hand support) for many years have had no issue with the handle - it's not that fragile. I don't like that there isn't an upper hand rest and I'd avoid the previous generation of hammer attachments - they were just fucking stupid.  Grivel... here is my rant on Grivel: Grivel make some of the best gear out there.  But they always (deliberately?) fuck one thing up. Just to say that perfection is possible but we choose not to attain it.  For the North Machine, it is the smaller hand rest. 

Do you mean you prefer the monstrosity from the Matrix/Quantum tech tools?

At least it was more supportive!  something in between might be nice.  Everyone else has figured that balance out.  In saying that, I still like them.