New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #14

rgold wrote:

Haha, I'm stuck with how close 77 is to 80, so from my perspective you've got at least another ten years.  We will both go to the grave without having perfected all aspects of our chosen craft, and with some regrets about what we didn't have time to do because we were busy playing the hand we were dealt---the hand of life. But having one foot in the grave and the other on a bananna peel tends, at least for me, to trivialize all these concerns.  The sun is out, the wall glistens,  a struggle is in the offing---and struggle is what climbing is about. It wouldn't be climbing if success was guaranteed, and let's face it, not every hand is a winning hand, the point is to play the game.

So beautifully said, rgold.  It's rare that I just give in to a pity party but there it is--I wanted to give up on life because I couldn't get my toe in a crack.   And there is NOTHING to complain about here.  We are so blessed.  

But it's especially telling that you wrote the word 'struggle'.  Do you have any idea why we would want that?  

When I'm climbing, I rarely feel like I'm having 'fun'.  Bob is pretty chill, and relaxed.  That wouldn't describe it either.  Climbing does often feel like a real battle.  A struggle.  I wonder what it is about climbers that enjoy the struggle so much?  And I'm glad you are also still in the game, rgold.  

-----------

On another note... I've become so fascinated with climbing history, but especially the history in the place where I climb.  I am starting to become aware of who was here before, and it's intriguing to think of all those who set the bar, who established the routes, who have the stories.  I've been asking that somehow a history be recorded of those who have been here, and maybe add in the visions of the newer climbers who are charting their own courses.  

Much as I goof on Houser, it is kinda cool to think I am climbing a route that he, or Gaines, or Bartlett... or Cole, any of those guys put up.  

I just read an article Bob wrote about his friend Scott Cosgrove.  https://www.outsideonline.com/2058671/obituary-climber-scott-cosgrove-1964-2016

As my mom turned 102 I realized that she had a lifetime of stories to tell, and I recorded hours of her memories, but I should have done that much sooner.  I hope the big stories are told before the climbers die off.  

Jarrod Webb wrote:

Carl is 23 a 5.11?

5.11d I believe... 

Lori Milas wrote:

But it's especially telling that you wrote the word 'struggle'.  Do you have any idea why we would want that?  

Well, I think its in the genes, and its presence probably has a lot to do with the survival of the human race.  We are drawn to difficulty, so much so that when nature fails to provided us with it, we go to extraordinary lengths to invent things to struggle with.  Look at all the games we play---they're attractive precisely because they are hard, from golf and basketball to crossword puzzles and chess, humans could be seen as being desperate for challenges.  Of course, some people manage to avoid these genetic imperatives, perhaps partially because we need them far less from an evolutionary point of view and not everyone finds themselves so driven, but by and large most people are looking for things to struggle with.

Not everyone chooses climbing of course, although the explosion of interest in sport and gym climbing makes it clear that if risk can be bled out of the struggle, the appeal is very substantial.

rgold wrote:

Well, I think its in the genes, and its presence probably has a lot to do with the survival of the human race.  We are drawn to difficulty, so much so that when nature fails to provided us with it, we go to extraordinary lengths to invent things to struggle with.  Look at all the games we play---they're attractive precisely because they are hard, from golf and basketball to crossword puzzles and chess, humans could be seen as being desperate for challenges.  Of course, some people manage to avoid these genetic imperatives, perhaps partially because we need them far less from an evolutionary point of view and not everyone finds themselves so driven, but by and large most people are looking for things to struggle with.

Not everyone chooses climbing of course, although the explosion of interest in sport and gym climbing makes it clear that if risk can be bled out of the struggle, the appeal is very substantial.

That's too narrow, imo. Quite a few mammals play, and do so much more freely and totally than we hominids do (at least once we "grow up"). If dogs don't learn precisely how to read others, and how far they can push things "fighting"? They lose their buddy, or worse, their pack. Our equivalent is surviving our teens/early twenties.

Beyond that? Couple anything resembling a problem solving brain and any ability to manipulate objects? 

All bets are off! Elephants wielding paint brushes...

But what about the other critters? Like covids,  big parrots (who can outlive their owners), even octopi!

I like it like that. For us, danger is part of it, but not all. It's less than fun actually facing down that mammoth solo, when you stupidly left the spear home....but if we do survive? Now, we'd label it type two fun, lol! Far more so if a buddy was along.

That's the really hard part of 2020. Nothing to throw a spear at, and no one to enjoy the BBQ with after. I dunno about you guys, but I perform way better with people around who care how it's going.

Even if it's just getting the dishes (heck, my hair some weeks) washed.

Now, the lawn, we KNOW how high up my list that is, eh?

:-)

Given the ups and downs of being "too old" for your passion, and the years long discussion we've had of good days/bad days, I just had to share this podcast "Minimizing Pain, Maximizing Joy" from Hidden Brain. It's amazing, and I think it will resonate for most of us. Listen to it while you're doing something mindless (dishes, laundry, soaking in the tub). It seems nearly all of us get how amazing it is to climb, even when the gravity is too high. This podcast talks about a mental toolkit that's useful for grappling with the hard parts of being in the back half of life, and having an imagination that exceeds our reach.

Lori Milas wrote:

But it's especially telling that you wrote the word 'struggle'.  Do you have any idea why we would want that?  

To me climbing and these other activities are a challenge, not a "struggle".  Some challenges are mental, some physical, some societal.  I submit that to reach their potential humans need to be challenged but, unfortunately, not all are up for a challenge and seek the easy way out, often ending up envious at what others accomplish in their lives.  

When I think of struggle, I think of the economically disadvantaged, trying to make ends meet and raise a family, or to just survive.  The old widowed street vendor in (insert any country in the Western Hemisphere except Canada), inadequate food and shelter, no health care, no family, nada, nada.   

That said, I've had many a struggle getting up an off-width.

Old lady H wrote:

And this, from John:

"You are never too old to become younger."

I am just back from the final Boise Farmer's Market until April 2021. Drive through, contactless, pickup, managed with all volunteers. Playing the extemely shitty hand they were dealt. I have always opted in for local food, this year more than ever.

And?

On the way to the local coffee place, I passed the closed streets adjacent to the Boise Bicycle Project. Today is their annual bike giveaway, hundreds of bikes. And helmets. And safety instruction. And bike cops helping out. Again, a huge volunteer effort. They do bikes for those who can't afford them, all year, but this is the big Christmas event. A fair bit of their clientele are homeless folks and refugees. 

These organizations have been operating for years. And many others too, of course. 

The greatest gift I have ever had? 

Having the opportunity to be generous to others. Sometimes planned, sometimes spontaneous. It has nothing to do with having resources, either. It's all about heart. I have remembered a story, which I will pop up in a separate thread. 

Best to all of you! Helen

  

Helen

I have two mottos that I use a lot. The first is mostly for climbing.

1. The older I get, the better I was.

The next I may have to explain to Carl since it may not translate so well.

2. Look out for number 1 and do not step in number 2.

John

Lori Milas wrote:

I had to laugh at "get some professional help" because at this point I'm thinking I might need some.  A good shrink is in order here.    

I woke up thinking about that crack... trying everything I could think of to make some progress, from finger jamming to gaston.  It honestly felt like I couldn't get all my limbs to cooperate.  I'd maybe get a toe in that crack, but my hand would fall out.  Finally, if I organized all body parts, it came down to core strength.  It takes strong pull and strength to move up a crack.  

When all else fails I go to how close 67 is to 70, and how close that is to the grave.  Maybe I'm too old for this.  In the middle of the night I asked Tony "Why did I spend 40 years raising ungrateful children when I could have been crack climbing?"  It was a serious question.  He said "Lori, you played the hand you were dealt. Now you have a fresh hand.  Play it."  

Ok, then.    

Lori

Guy wrote about lifting weights to help get into shape. I remember I once tried to lead this crack climb in the Creek and got up about half way and was totally exhausted. I had to bale from my high point. A friend of mine took over and finished the climb. I tried again on TR and could not even get to my high point when I lead the climb. I really wanted to lead this climb.You also have to remember that I do not have splitter cracks out where I live. I am not used to crack climbing but I enjoy it.

I went back home and joined the local gym and worked out lifting weights, doing pull ups, etc. and using a treadmill and elliptical machines for 30 minutes each. I usually spent 1.5 hours 3 times a week. That summer, we went back to the same climb and I did make it all the way to the anchor. One of the problems was that I did not have enough of the same size cams. I had to down climb multiple times to get a cam and re-climb back up and repeat this process more than a couple of times. The only reason that I did make this climb clean with out hanging or falling was that I did train at the gym to get into better shape.

One of the reasons that I really wanted to do this climb that it had a beautiful hand crack for about 80 feet. Where I had to jam my feet in and twist, Jean's feet slid in and she used it like a ladder. She had problems with the hand size and had to use fists jamming instead of hand jams.

Like everything else in life, you need to work for it. Both Jean and I climb because we love it. We do not care about the grades. We usually have a great time even if we can not do the climb. There is always tomorrow to try it again.

John

Lori Milas wrote:

I just read an article Bob wrote about his friend Scott Cosgrove.  https://www.outsideonline.com/2058671/obituary-climber-scott-cosgrove-1964-2016

Thanks for posting that Lori, it brings back lots of fond memories. And there's so much more that's not in that piece, like the time Coz (as I called him)  and I teamed up to climb a new route on the West Face of Sentinel Rock in Yosemite (16 pitches, all free) over 6 days in the summer of '95. What an adventure! Coz didn't live too many years into the over 50 designation, but man, what a life he lived! RIP 'ol buddy.

Oldtradguy wrote:

Helen

I have two mottos that I use a lot. The first is mostly for climbing.

1. The older I get, the better I was.

The next I may have to explain to Carl since it may not translate so well.

2. Look out for number 1 and do not step in number 2.

John

I know what number twos are

Oldtradguy wrote:

Lori

Guy wrote about lifting weights to help get into shape. I remember I once tried to lead this crack climb in the Creek and got up about half way and was totally exhausted. I had to bale from my high point. A friend of mine took over and finished the climb. I tried again on TR and could not even get to my high point when I lead the climb. I really wanted to lead this climb.You also have to remember that I do not have splitter cracks out where I live. I am not used to crack climbing but I enjoy it.

I went back home and joined the local gym and worked out lifting weights, doing pull ups, etc. and using a treadmill and elliptical machines for 30 minutes each. I usually spent 1.5 hours 3 times a week. That summer, we went back to the same climb and I did make it all the way to the anchor. One of the problems was that I did not have enough of the same size cams. I had to down climb multiple times to get a cam and re-climb back up and repeat this process more than a couple of times. The only reason that I did make this climb clean with out hanging or falling was that I did train at the gym to get into better shape.

One of the reasons that I really wanted to do this climb that it had a beautiful hand crack for about 80 feet. Where I had to jam my feet in and twist, Jean's feet slid in and she used it like a ladder. She had problems with the hand size and had to use fists jamming instead of hand jams.

Like everything else in life, you need to work for it. Both Jean and I climb because we love it. We do not care about the grades. We usually have a great time even if we can not do the climb. There is always tomorrow to try it again.

John

John,

First, I cannot imagine agreeing to live anywhere where there are not splitter cracks!  I mean, why would you?    

Thanks for the advice, John... slowly we are creating our own gym at home just so we can work out here.  Seems something always screws it up... yesterday it was just trying to inflate the new gym ball.  After two hours of trying to get air into it,  it's a puddle of rubber on the floor, and I'm screaming at Walmart for selling me that ball.  For core strength, the ball is pretty cool. 

Bob has said he spent two summers in Yosemite just climbing cracks.  I think I'm going to need to do something that methodical.  I was hoping maybe Randy's book, or some other resource, will help me identify splitters starting at 5.5 and working up.  I don't mind just going through the ranks, starting with cracks I can actually climb.  Hit and miss isn't working.  

I love the above conversation about motivation... struggle, challenge, fun etc.  I think Idaho Bob added some good food for thought.  There is something deeply satisfying about meeting a challenge we set for ourselves.  "I submit that to reach their potential humans need to be challenged but, unfortunately, not all are up for a challenge and seek the easy way out, often ending up envious at what others accomplish in their lives."  

My neighbor keeps peeking into my garage when I'm out there on the climbing wall or building anchors.  He's 43, has a kid at home (14) and both are deeply depressed laying around in dark rooms.  My neighbor said he's been laying on his bed for 3 days, staring at the ceiling.  He was a cop, and he was also with the DEA but now he's disabled.  He's bored, and he's restless.  And he misses the challenge of being out there, working.  That's a struggle.  Maybe in climbing we create our own challenges to fight back any number of things, including depression, decay, lethargy.   We live literally a mile from climbing areas and yet my neighbor never thought of it.  He's getting interested now.. both for himself and his son. 

Very interesting discussion.  Hope more add to it.      

Bummer advice.  

Good morning! Rough couple of days here, my wife's closest friend an RN pass unexpectedly night before last.

Now back to business, I have friends, a married couple that back in the early 1980s in JT started at 5.7 and climbed almost every 5.7 then every 5.8 before they moved up. The husband had been an athlete in college and was strong as can be but the wife was not. After a couple of years of this, I went to Yosemite with them & was pleasantly surprised at how strong she had become & her technique was excellent. Start on easy stuff let your body flow. You will improve! 

Sorry about your wife’s loss Mark.

Great advice about working through the grades. In a place like JT where there are 1000’s of routes, I think you could keep very busy climbing quality routes at the easier grades. I had a goal one year of climbing all the 4 star 5.6 routes In Eldo - still haven’t finished, but it was a great exercise. I climbed a lot of routes that wouldn’t have been on my radar, and it was a lot of fun. Lori - if you do have aspirations of leading, you really do need to start off at the 5.easy grades. 5.easy often equals 5.fun in my experience. 

ErikaNW wrote:

Great advice about working through the grades. In a place like JT where there are 1000’s of routes, I think you could keep very busy climbing quality routes at the easier grades. I had a goal one year of climbing all the 4 star 5.6 routes In Eldo - still haven’t finished, but it was a great exercise. I climbed a lot of routes that wouldn’t have been on my radar, and it was a lot of fun. Lori - if you do have aspirations of leading, you really do need to start off at the 5.easy grades. 5.easy often equals 5.fun in my experience. 

Lori, that's really good advice. The one thing I'd add is to pay attention to the route's protection potential. Sometimes easy grades have long runouts. Especially when you're starting out, it's good to be able to sew up a crack or, if it's a bolted route, to have spacing that's not too sporty.    

Yes on the protection! One of the scariest routes I’ve done was a 5.3 in Eldo - I think it’s called Easy Street - up at Cadillac Crag. Huge run out with big consequence if you blow it. It was Jim’s pitch and he vowed to stay off the ‘easy’ Eldo climbs after that one! 

Thanks for the advice on leading.  Don't know why... I haven't felt compelled to lead yet.  I just haven't!   I appreciate Guy's statement that it will unfold 'organically', if it unfolds at all.  

At the moment, I feel like I have my hands full just climbing everything in sight on top rope or following--and for me, these routes are gorgeous and at my very limit.  The routes I most want to experience climbing I will NEVER lead. (ex. Run For Your Life)  I feel plenty of challenge top roping, following... and learning/building anchors, rappeling, and trying to learn how to be a decent partner.  Scrambling.  Belaying. 

When that day comes, it will be the easiest climbs in the park--which for me translates to giving up some valuable time on the crazy stuff that's SO challenging, but way above any leading potential.  

We'll see.  Right now, it would just be one more thing to add to a too long list of stuff to do already.  But I love that you guys are out there doing it!!!   

There is one tiny annoying matter that is becoming a big annoyance... the number of routes that simply can't be top roped.  Or the multi-pitches that can't.  At some point, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and fix this so that I can at least set foot on those routes.  We were talking about a potential new route that is a long traverse... which I can't do on top rope.  The machinations to set up safety for me would be very awkward... so I may never get to touch this new route.  THOSE are fighting words!!!  

Figuring it out as I go....

Lori Milas wrote:

There is one tiny annoying matter that is becoming a big annoyance... the number of routes that simply can't be top roped.  Or the multi-pitches that can't.  At some point, I'm going to have to bite the bullet and fix this so that I can at least set foot on those routes.  We were talking about a potential new route that is a long traverse... which I can't do on top rope.  The machinations to set up safety for me would be very awkward... so I may never get to touch this new route.  THOSE are fighting words!!!  

Figuring it out as I go....

Aw, horse hockey!

Lori, there's "top rope", walk up, set it up, go down, climb, stuff. "Top rope" get some rope gun to lead single pitch ground up, they lower, then the top roper gets to play, stuff 

Then there's a "top" belay. 

Following. Totally legit.

Rope gun leads, stays at the "top" of that pitch, and the second climber climbs to them. On sport, unclipping draws as you go. Trad, cleaning gear as you go. 

The only part of this that could legitimately give you pause, is that you can't lower to the ground instantly. 

But geez, it might still be in your wheelhouse, if you  can plan to be good up on the wall.

Multipitch too, especially in a party of three. The first and third climbers do all the leading and cleaning, you just need to unclip lead rope and reclip the following rope. 

On something easy? I can't see this being much different than the hike in, honestly. The two multis I did this way, Theater of Shadows at City of Rocks with John and Jean, and something I forget the name of at Maple Canyon with ErikaNW and Jim, were FUN!!

You might be making this harder than it is.

Best, Helen

Lori Milas wrote:

Thanks for the advice on leading.  Don't know why... I haven't felt compelled to lead yet.  I just haven't!   I appreciate Guy's statement that it will unfold 'organically', if it unfolds at all.  

Lori I'm very sooky leader, esp leading trad. I have only led up to grade 15 trad, but led up to 23 sports. Most of the time though I Top Rope and generally am comfortable top roping up to 22 to 23 these days, most often 21, 22. However, the other day I was attempting a lead of a 23 I'd been trying for a few weeks. Couldn't work out the beta but found I WASN'T as worried as I used to be. Also, after attempting the lead I tried top roping to work out the beta and did WORSE. I was much more focused, careful and fluid on the lead. It made me wonder if I should lead more... Maybe you will have a similar experience. 

Carl Schneider wrote:

Lori I'm very sooky leader, esp leading trad. I have only led up to grade 15 trad, but led up to 23 sports. Most of the time though I Top Rope and generally am comfortable top roping up to 22 to 23 these days, most often 21, 22. However, the other day I was attempting a lead of a 23 I'd been trying for a few weeks. Couldn't work out the beta but found I WASN'T as worried as I used to be. Also, after attempting the lead I tried top roping to work out the beta and did WORSE. I was much more focused, careful and fluid on the lead. It made me wonder if I should lead more... Maybe you will have a similar experience. 

Thank you Carl (and all).  I don’t know if I can explain my feelings on leading.  I get that every climber here places a huge premium on leading and measure their climbing skill on what they can lead.  I’m just not interested at this point. I’m open to that changing and I think it will one day.  

In one way I do consider the risk vs benefit of leading much the same as with bouldering. There have been very few boulders that have called to me so much that I was willing to break an ankle or leg for it.  If I REALLY loved bouldering I would take the risk. If I really felt the call to lead I’d be doing it. 

A few months ago I did take a rack and rope and mock led a route on Hemingway.  There have been some others I’ve led on a very loose mock lead. My overriding feeling was annoyance at having to stop and place gear every few feet.  I was worn out and irritated... not the response I expected!   

But also.. during this year I’ve entrusted myself to a few (mainly one) really excellent climbers.  They know what I want to climb and steadily we are working through the routes one by one. They see my weaknesses and strengths every time we go out. They know my diabetes, age and personality and it’s nice to have an objective assessment from someone I trust.  It’s pretty cool to hear “I think you’re ready for this route now.”  I like being pushed to my limit. I have not heard the words “I think you should be leading this.” 

I trust that. I also wouldn’t be surprised if I wake up one morning and decide it’s time to start leading.  I have NO IDEA where this goes. Clearly it’s different for each of us.  

Lori, there is a very nice 5.6 splitter called Gargoyle on Zippy Rock in Pinto Basin area that you might like to check out. Just sayin’