Survey: mixed grades

Hi everyone,

I would like to learn more about mixed grades. (I've done a little mixed/dry, but not enough to really feel like I know the grading scale.) I'm aware of the intricacies and variation in rock grades, so I decided I will pose this question to the masses, in order to get a sense of the grading scale a bit better:

What is your redpoint sport dry tool grade, what grade mixed would you lead in the mountains (ie, falling is painful or worse) and what grade mixed would you feel ok free soloing (not required that you actually have, just hypothetical)?

I'm not trying to start a spray down about grades; I'm mostly interested in the spread between red point/no falls/free solo. And just to mention, I'm not taking this as advice on what I should do, just starting a conversation. 

J Cwrote:

Hi everyone,

I would like to learn more about mixed grades. (I've done a little mixed/dry, but not enough to really feel like I know the grading scale.) I'm aware of the intricacies and variation in rock grades, so I decided I will pose this question to the masses, in order to get a sense of the grading scale a bit better:

What is your redpoint sport dry tool grade, what grade mixed would you lead in the mountains (ie, falling is painful or worse) and what grade mixed would you feel ok free soloing (not required that you actually have, just hypothetical)?

I'm not trying to start a spray down about grades; I'm mostly interested in the spread between red point/no falls/free solo. And just to mention, I'm not taking this as advice on what I should do, just starting a conversation. 

Sport DT M11

Trad mixed M7

Solo M5

I lead 11a sport on a good day. 

All this being said i know 5.13 rock climbers that couldn't climb M5 to save their lives. Mixed and rock climbing are so different that its irrelevant to compare them.

Like rock, for me it really depends on the type of climbing. Is it a think crack i can securely slot and cam my picks and front points in, and get good gear frequently? Or is it a face climb with small edges, and run outs. Just the same way as my hardest trad lines on rock have been well protected cracks. The type of climbing has as much, if not more of an effect on what i am comfortable doing in the alpine then the grade. 

Kevin, thanks for the datapoint. Seems like it's the technique element that makes dry tooling so challenging for strong sport climbers. As someone who is relatively inexperienced with this skillset, I wonder about how confidence is gained with climbing that feels so insecure to me. Soloing M5 seems more foreign to me currently than soloing Freerider.

Ryan, to some degree I understand what you're saying; if you are strong on one style of climbing, you will have weaknesses in other styles of movement. The rock type is known before you pick a route though, along with the location and reputation. I guess my initial question purposefully included the uncertainty you note-- what grade would you start up in the mountains, not knowing 100% what is ahead? The fact that there is uncertainty is part of the reason why this probably is lower than the redpoint drytool grade for most people.

For anyone else, I want to rephrase my initial question, in order to reduce the emphasis on the actual grades; what is the difference between your redpoint/trad/solo mixed grades?

Speaking in generalities:

A common conversion for mixed is +4. That is, take the M grade, add 4, and that's about what the mixed grade feels like. So M5 should feel like 5.9 or so (assuming equal skill at both the style of mixed and the style of rock). M4 is usually the start of tooling; below that grade, it's often easier to just used glove hands (exception abound). The +4 metric starts to break down around M8/9 in my opinion, wherein the specific demands of either style of climbing become more apparent. Sport M9 doesn't feel near as hard to me as 5.13, as the letters in the 5.12-5.13 range start to matter (below that I feel like a +/- grade tends to be sufficient).

I don't do a lot of sport mixed to be honest, just enough to get fit for trad mixed, so I haven't put much effort into redpointing. I've redpointed M8 and clipped the chains on M9 (maybe redpoint in 3 more burns if I'd been motivated to redpoint). Spent much more time on trad mixed, up to about M7. Have soloed up to M3 onsight with no concerns. Probably M5/6 with rehearsal.

Red point M7/8 sport 

Mountains/trad M5/6

Solo is more dependent on rock quality and movement style for me... M4 on good rock

On rock I'm a 5.12 redpointer (sport/trad), 5.10+/11- in mountains (5.10 if its a bit runout), solo would again depend on other things but a secure 5.8 would be fine.

For someone who is relatively new to mixed climbing, but has a lot of prior rock and ice climbing experience, here’s what I would suggest:

- Don’t solo anything graded higher than M3

- Don’t lead on trad gear on anything graded higher than M4

- Don’t lead bolted sport routes harder than M5

- Top rope as much as possible, until you get a feel for grades and are no longer falling, unexpectedly.

I think the important point here is that your picks and crampon points will slip unexpectedly, until you get experience mixed climbing. Rock and ice climbing experience cannot really substitute for mixed climbing, in this regard. Mixed climb grades will not tell you how insecure the holds are or how safe the falls will be.

Often times, the key holds break off or the ice conditions change significantly.  A climb that is easy in “normal” conditions can become desperate in “abnormal” conditions.  

Karl Henizewrote:

- Don’t lead on trad gear on anything graded higher than M4

- Don’t lead bolted sport routes harder than M5

I would argue that on steep and well protected climbing, someone who is strong enough to go bolt to bolt is actually much safer starting with hard grades where falls are clean. M4/5 are usually slabby and can be an ankle breaker no matter how well protected they are. By comparison M6/7 is often steep enough for clean falls and no move is going to be impossible for someone with a bouldering or sport climbing background. This essentially allows you to go roped bouldering which (assuming you are a strong enough climber to actually do the individual moves) allows you to get a sense for what you can/can't do much more quickly.

Sam Beeduhlwrote:

I would argue that on steep and well protected climbing, someone who is strong enough to go bolt to bolt is actually much safer starting with hard grades where falls are clean. M4/5 are usually slabby and can be an ankle breaker no matter how well protected they are. By comparison M6/7 is often steep enough for clean falls and no move is going to be impossible for someone with a bouldering or sport climbing background. This essentially allows you to go roped bouldering which (assuming you are a strong enough climber to actually do the individual moves) allows you to get a sense for what you can/can't do much more quickly.

While I agree that M4/M5 routes are usually not overhanging and M6/M7 routes usually have parts that are overhanging, the consequences of falling are not necessarily tied to the grade.  Harder routes don’t necessarily always have clean falls.  

It is also worth mentioning that continuously overhanging sport routes also doesn’t provide particularly great technique training for less than vertical alpine/trad routes.  Crack and slab climbing with tools crampons is a unique skill set that is distinct from hooking positive edges.   There are people who can climb M10 overhangs that would be terrified of climbing runout M5 slabs or M6 cracks.  

I have seen newbies stick clip their way up bolted mixed routes that are not accessible from the top.  This is another strategy that can be used to safely get up sport routes, when falls would not be clean.  

Drytooling routes with manufactured holds are often low risk to beginners.  Starting off at crags with manufactured holds can be a good way to reduce risk, while getting a feel for the gymnastic difficulty of different grades.  

Karl Henizewrote:

While I agree that M4/M5 routes are usually not overhanging and M6/M7 routes usually have parts that are overhanging, the consequences of falling are not necessarily tied to the grade.  Harder routes don’t necessarily always have clean falls.  

It is also worth mentioning that continuously overhanging sport routes also doesn’t provide particularly great technique training for less than vertical alpine/trad routes.  Crack and slab climbing with tools crampons is a unique skill set that is distinct from hooking positive edges.   There are people who can climb M10 overhangs that would be terrified of climbing runout M5 slabs or M6 cracks.  

I have seen newbies stick clip their way up bolted mixed routes that are not accessible from the top.  This is another strategy that can be used to safely get up sport routes, when falls would not be clean.  

Drytooling routes with manufactured holds are often low risk to beginners.  Starting off at crags with manufactured holds can be a good way to reduce risk, while getting a feel for the gymnastic difficulty of different grades.  

Yes, I would totally agree. Beginners should be assessing risk not difficulty when deciding what to lead. Like you mentioned... lots of TR mileage is great.

Karl Henizewrote:

I have seen newbies stick clip their way up bolted mixed routes that are not accessible from the top.  This is another strategy that can be used to safely get up sport routes, when falls would not be clean.  

I actually bought one of those nice compact stick clips a week before you wrote this, with that exact intention. I don't really sport climb much, so I am not used to thinking of this as a way to access the anchors. I think in the long run the stick clip will be cheaper than bribing a stronger dry tooling partner with free beer.

Thank you everyone for the replies. 

What would you consider the 4th class of M grades? From what I know so far, I'd guess the M2-3 range? 

J Cwrote:

Thank you everyone for the replies. 

What would you consider the 4th class of M grades? From what I know so far, I'd guess the M2-3 range? 

I'd consider 4th class to be the 4th class of M grades. The mixed grade is a relatively new thing. You can definitely find old grades for routes that just state a YDS grade, perhaps something like III WI4 5.9. Then it's up to the climber to interpret that for winter climbing with crampons. However, the YDS grade might not tell the whole story, as a 5.9 route could be significantly harder or potentially easier in winter. Hence the development of the M grade system. 

As I mentioned upthread, +4 is a typical conversion metric. So M1 ~= 5.5. So...there is no M grade for 4th class; the scale starts at 5th class. But if you are trying to figure out appropriate mixed grades for your abilities, just pick your favorite 4th class scramble, wait for it to be cold and snowy, and then give it a go. That's probably as good a way as any to start wrapping your head around what you can do and what grade it might be. It will just be mixed 4th class. 

M2-3 would be more akin to 5.6-7.

From what I have observed, there are almost no routes with an M-grade below M3.  Many old school mixed routes will have a YDS grade.  You are more likely to see YDS grades for easier mixed routes, especially for routes that predate M-grades and modern ice tools.  Transition usually happens around 5.6-5.9, M3-M5. 

For example:

- Steep snow, 4th class

- AI3, 5.7

- WI4, M4

Karl Henizewrote:

For someone who is relatively new to mixed climbing, but has a lot of prior rock and ice climbing experience, here’s what I would suggest:

- Don’t solo anything graded higher than M3

- Don’t lead on trad gear on anything graded higher than M4

- Don’t lead bolted sport routes harder than M5

I think that suggesting grades that people should or shouldn't climb, without any context of to whom or in what context we are making that recommendation, is sketchy advice.  Particularly the part where you suggest that it might be ok for a new mixed climber to be soloing M3.

OP, one thing to think about is that drytool redpoint grades are going to be strongly tied to someone's ability and willingness to project; that's true for all climbing, but especially true for drytooling because most people don't have somewhere like Haffner in their back yard where they can work on a project.  So, the relationship between redpoint and onsight grades is going to vary a LOT depending on these circumstances.  Someone who travels a few times a year to climb ice/mixed and tries to get in a lot of volume, or someone who primarily climbs trad/alpine, is going to have a very weak redpoint grade compared to their other climbing ticks.

Kyle Tarrywrote:

I think that suggesting grades that people should or shouldn't climb, without any context of to whom or in what context we are making that recommendation, is sketchy advice.  Particularly the part where you suggest that it might be ok for a new mixed climber to be soloing M3.

Your criticism is fair.  The OP asked specifically about specific grades for free-soloing, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it.  I was trying to imply that it would almost certainly be reckless for inexperienced mixed climber trying to free solo M4 or harder.  However, I could see how one might interpret it as a suggestion for a suggestion to free solo M3.  

In my mind, M3 is the highest grade where there is no sustained vertical, resting spots are frequent, and you have a decent chance of catching yourself, if a tool or crampon slips.  Free soloing anything that could result in severe injury or death is obviously sketchy.  

Clearly, the safest thing to do would be to start by top roping.  

Redpoint M (or D)12-12+

Roped alpine M6-8 depending on the style

Solo M6-8 depending on the style

quite a bit of alpine mixed is essentially a free solo even if you have a rope, wild runouts aren't uncommon, and pure choss is likely, since you are really likely to get super messed up better to not fall, I'd consider this to be like ice climbing where your lead grade is pretty much your solo grade...

it should also be noted that M6 is the alpine version of 5.9+ if the FA didn't know what to rate a new route M6 is almost always the default answer, buyer beware because it might be an unrateable slab, a heinous chimney, any number of other oddities, but if the FA didn't fall it couldn't have been too hard so it must be M6...

Grant Kleeveswrote:

it should also be noted that M6 is the alpine version of 5.9+ if the FA didn't know what to rate a new route M6 is almost always the default answer, buyer beware because it might be an unrateable slab, a heinous chimney, any number of other oddities, but if the FA didn't fall it couldn't have been too hard so it must be M6...

Thank you, very helpful, learning a lot. I will beware the M6.

RE: Karl/Kyle above^^ I appreciate Karl being direct in his first post. Obviously don't solo because a guy on the internet said you could; but I think it's reasonable to give advice on what grades to NOT solo. So I take it as, "if you have to ask, don't think about soloing above M3," rather than being told "it's ok to solo M3." 

Grant Kleeveswrote:

it should also be noted that M6 is the alpine version of 5.9+ if the FA didn't know what to rate a new route M6 is almost always the default answer, buyer beware because it might be an unrateable slab, a heinous chimney, any number of other oddities, but if the FA didn't fall it couldn't have been too hard so it must be M6...

Seems like in the Canadian Rockies this could also be the case for M5... several "alpine" Raphael Slawinski routes have the reputation of being "M5 Raph routes" meaning they are at least M6 for normal people. 

Sam Beeduhlwrote:

Seems like in the Canadian Rockies this could also be the case for M5... several "alpine" Raphael Slawinski routes have the reputation of being "M5 Raph routes" meaning they are at least M6 for normal people. 

Literally any raph route is at least one grade harder than what its rated