Ethics of bolting a top rope route?

Is bolting a route that is currently set up only for top rope (which has no possibility of being a trad route) generally acceptable, frowned upon, or dependent on the crag and person who put up the line? The route I'm thinking of has been around for awhile if that plays into the consideration.

Entirely crag/land management/regional context. 

Rob Basantawrote:

Is bolting a route that is currently set up only for top rope (which has no possibility of being a trad route) generally acceptable, frowned upon, or dependent on the crag and person who put up the line? The route I'm thinking of has been around for awhile if that plays into the consideration.

Don't be so quick to assume a route can't be led on gear. 

And what's wrong with just top roping it? Bolting opens up a whole can of worms...

Generally frowned upon. The general ethic is that the FA decides how to equip a climb and you leave it like that. It may not be perfect but it's a well established precedent and it opens up a can of worms if you don't respect it.

If the FA wanted it bolted to lead it they probably would've done that.

That being said if you can talk to the FA and they give their blessing it's generally okay. Maybe the didn't have the money to put in all the bolts. Maybe they've decided it's worth bolting. Even then the local community may not agree and chop the bolts.

If you can't contact the FA then you should talk to as many locals as possible and get their opinion. As mentioned it's locally dependent. Even if everyone is for it, think long and hard. Do you have the expertise to do it correctly and safely. Will it cause problems in any way. Why isn't it good as just a top rope.

I believe the idea that a TR FA gets to rule out subsequent bolting is at least somewhat debatable and decidedly crag specific.

But the real question the OP should be asking is "if I bolt this TR, will the bolts get chopped and will I be vilified by other climbers?"

If the TR has truly "been around a while" I'm guessing it's not going to be a great candidate for bolts.

Mark E Dixonwrote:

I believe the idea that a TR FA gets to rule out subsequent bolting is at least somewhat debatable and decidedly crag specific.

But the real question the OP should be asking is "if I bolt this TR, will the bolts get chopped and will I be vilified by other climbers?"

If the TR has truly "been around a while" I'm guessing it's not going to be a great candidate for bolts.

Agreed. Crag specific, but in my experience most places adhere to the first ascent rule even if by TR. Some crags are even if the FA was free solo it will remain unbolted.

Also agree bottom line is: will it be chopped. It's easier and cheaper to chop than bolt, which is a good thing IMO.

What IF the climb is a top rope that has been led once on teeny tiny gear with an X rating? Justified to bolt it??

Toproping should be illegal. 

Tradibanwrote:

What IF the climb is a top rope that has been led once on teeny tiny gear with an X rating? Justified to bolt it??

Please take the goading elsewhere. Your stance on bolting is well understood. This is a fixed hardware forum.

I Fwrote:

Please take the goading elsewhere. Your stance on bolting is well understood. This is a fixed hardware forum.

I happen to have skin in the game, do you?

Neither should be here, it's a climbing ethic question NOT a hardware one.

Other good reasons to NOT bolt it are if it is: 1. Very short - less than 30', 2. Mediocre climbing, and/or 3. Close (<5') to an existing bolted line. Since you climb at Erie, you've no doubt seen these kinds of excessive bolting.

Beyond the questions of ethics, what it really boils down to at the end of the day IMO is will your bolts get chopped or not. You may be able to get the blessing of most people in the local community and even the FA’ist that bolting a particular TR is a good idea, but you will never convince everyone of that and all it takes is one pissed off contrarian to swoop in with a Ryobi angle grinder and chop your effort. Be prepared for that possibility.

I've seen some established topropes get bolted. In every case, the bolts have stayed.

If it's a matter of boltering, I'd say skip it. 

Do you plan to bolt it on lead or top down?

Been around for awhile and known and accepted as a TR?  I'd leave it alone.

Concur with Jim...post this in the area that the TR resides in.  Have the discussion with that community.

It is extremely unlikely that bolting some old TR is going to be worth it...Think about it: Does making it a lead on closely spaced bolts really add an iota to the route or area? It had better be relatively long and sustained.

In greatest likelihood your energy is better spent finding you own lines instead of squeezing in just another weak sport climb.

I bolt up a storm and even condone retro-bolting some of my old routes (that can't be TR'd) to add something useful to a particular crag or area. It takes experience to know and I have also bolted short things I regret (and later chopped).

Think long and hard about what you are really adding to the route/area....in the final analysis and in the long run probably nothing.

Back around 2002 I bolted a 4 pitch 5.12+ slab route.  The third pitch had been attempted by the FA party of an nearby climb, and they backed off after 2 bolts.  I TR'ed the line until I could do all the moves, then bolted it on lead from hooks and stances.  Even took an upside down lead fall when a hook blew and skewered my hip with my hammer.  After another few years of effort I finally was able to link everything into what I thought was a pretty amazing route. 

Couple years later I met up with one of the FA party if the original line.  He was literally foaming at the mouth about how I bolted his abandoned TR project ( 20+ years after his FA). I told him to shove it.  At that point I made the determination that if you put in the effort just deal with the fact that not everyone is going to like it.  Just because some old poser can't do a climb doesn't mean the next generation can't improve on the style.  Just realize that at some point you will be that old poser.  Hopefully you have a more open perspective.

If you don't know the history of any area, or the ethics it is best to leave bolting to people that do.  Chopped routes are really an eyesore and take a lot of work to clean up.  Just try to keep the rock in mind vs your own ego, and talk to locals about your ideas first.

top rope gives you claim to just about zero ownership of a piece of rock.   weather or not to bolt an existing TR is crag specific but has nothing to do with the top rope hero claiming the route unless its a current project.  If after a season or so the top rope hero still can't climb it ask them if they are finished with the project and can you have a go at it. 

I like leading routes just (about) as much as anyone else, but not everything needs to be bolted. Most old TRs were left that way for a reason. Less about "ownership"  than pragmatism; if it's easier to TR then why would you (hand drill) a bunch of bolts? I know times have changed, and that many of the nuances are not easily expressed here (on the interwebs), but a lot of newer climbers just don't get it.

I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with bolting a TR route. You can still toprope it if there are bolts on it. If the FA (is it even a FA on toprope?) has a problem with that, then quite frankly I think that's ridiculous and their toprope FA is also ridiculous.