Woeful Lack of Masks/Distancing at Rumney

Your post will be flagged because it is mostly nuts. 

Each of your questions has really easy and obvious answers. 

And it is A LOT NOT ALOT. 

ubuwrote:

Let me guess: Fox & Friends?

By all means, please do.  I look forward to seeing your data.

If seatbelts work, why use airbags?

if seatbelts work, why do people still die in car accidents?

Its not my job to look these things up for you. I don't watch msm. you should perhaps turn CNN or MSNBC off as well and hop of twitter. I know it feels good to hide in your echo chamber, and not have any of your ideas challenged.

Bart Simpsonwrote:

First off, yes I think the Earth is round, most vaccines are useful, and I did my homework when it comes to this subject, so you can quit with the talk down to me.

That is just a flat out lie and you know it is. Check the statistics on mask wearers and covid transmission. Lets take a look at some of the talking points.

If masks work, then why social distancing?

If social distancing works, then why is covid still spreading?

If masks work, why do people still test positive for covid even if they wear masks?

If masks and social distancing work, then why the need for a lockdown?

If covid testing is accurate, then why so many false positives?

If covid is so dangerous then why is the fatality rate less then 1%?

If covid is so dangerous then why is the vast majority of cases asymptomatic?

If covid is statistically the most dangerous for people with 3 or more preexisting conditions, then why quarantine the healthy population and not the elderly and ill?

If complete quarantine is still needed to save the few, then why are people still dying from covid?

If people are still dying from covid, then either masks, lockdown, social distancing are not effective, or testing is inaccurate and people are surely not dying of covid? 

If the vaccine is safe and effective, then why cant you take legal action against the manufacturers if you are injured by the vaccine?

If all the information you have been given by the "experts" is truth, then why will this post be flagged, and probably deleted for challenging the narrative? Why are counter arguments silenced on social media?

The mental hurdles you have to jump over to buy into the narrative are almost to much to handle, and that is why ALOT of people no longer care about one of the largest nothing-burgers ever pushed on the people.  "They" have done well to fearmonger and scare the uneducated to be literal useful idiots in pushing through these draconian rules set in place well before anyone knew what we were dealing with. I don't know if it is pride or ignorance, but people have dug there heals in believing that this thing is so dangerous when the data clearly show it isn't.  The only person holding you back from "life normalcy" is you Marc801.  You have been tricked, and you are to embarrassed or prideful to admit it.

People like this are so depressing to see in the wild. I want to believe he's a troll, but he has me convinced that he's genuine. I can only hope that he's 14 y/o and will grow out of it

ubuwrote:

Let me guess: Fox & Friends?

By all means, please do.  I look forward to seeing your data.

If seatbelts work, why use airbags?

if seatbelts work, why do people still die in car accidents?

Uh, the New England Journal of Medicine and the CDC have both had papers written and published that clearly indicate masks are not doing much of anything other than satiating some reflex need to do something people think helps. Yes, I believe Fox and Friends did mention this in a discussion. 

You can find these articles, and many others, if you look for them.

Seatbelts and airbags have been proven to work as designed - saving lives. The masks everyone is wearing out there today, not so much.

BigFeetwrote:

Uh, the New England Journal of Medicine and the CDC have both had papers written and published that clearly indicate masks are not doing much of anything other than satiating some reflex need to do something people think helps. Yes, I believe Fox and Friends did mention this in a discussion. 

You can find these articles, and many others, if you look for them.

Seatbelts and airbags have been proven to work as designed - saving lives. The masks everyone is wearing out there today, not so much.

As someone who does research in this area, and who is very aware of what the literature says and does not say, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that you have no idea what you are talking about. 

You need to actually read the articles and not distort them. Mask made properly and worn properly do their job! It also helps to know what their job is. 

ubuwrote:

As someone who does research in this area, and who is very aware of what the literature says and does not say, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that you have no idea what you are talking about. 

https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/coronavirus/wearing-a-face-mask-is-mandatory-in-24-states/

Something not from Fox and Friends. 

Please, explain why people are still susceptible to infection when everyone is mandated to wear masks. I thought they worked? You can find article after article describing the same situation across the globe. 

Please, explain to me how you are making the point clear to everyone listening/reading that these articles back up your mandating of everyone to wear a mask? People are wearing them, and people are still catching the cootie. Really weird, huh?

Maybe you should expand your research and read some more literature. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Going to the busiest crag in 6 states definitely seems inline? Going to metamorphosis is distancing? You went on the beaten path. Going to rumney is the opposite of avoiding people. I’m not saying you shouldn’t go but if everyone was wearing masks at rumney that doesn’t change The fact people are on top of each other.

There was a comment awhile back about letting anti-maskers win. The fact is going to the busiest place with a mask on is letting covid win.

This is my last reply to you specifically because you continue to twist my words (deliberately or otherwise), make things up, and generally miss the point of this thread.    

I agree that Rumney overall is one of the busiest areas but there are multiple crags within it, plenty of which are perfectly quiet even on busy days.  If you had actually read the op, which your posts increasingly lead me to believe you didn't, you would know I didn't climb at the area metamorphosis is in- I walked around the edge of the base to get to other areas.  I'm not as well versed at getting around Rumney as others probably are and didn't realize there was an alternative path.  I do now and will certainly use it in the future.  FWIW climbing at any busy spot like that would seem completely fine though, albeit something I would probably avoid personally, if people there agreed to follow the medical community's and RCA's guidelines.    

People are not "on top of each other" and thinking that makes me question if you've ever actually been there.  Sure some areas are more crowded than others, but Rumney is a big place and pre covid even the busiest areas were are akin to a gym on a moderately busy day.  Effective distancing between parties is absolutely possible.     

Rumney is one of the busiest areas because for many, like myself, it's by far the most feasible distance wise, by far the most accessible for parties with a wide range of skill levels within them, and by far the most accessible for people who don't get to climb outdoors a lot and aren't very adept at trad climbing.  Covid has inspired me to eventually get better at the latter, but in the meantime you effectively gatekeeping a public area seems wildly out of line.  Calling going to a busy place that has less busy areas within it with a mask on "letting covid win" is not only not a fact, but absurd in light of outdoor recreation being open in NH.    

Your drunk driving analogy is also awful for the reasons others have pointed out.  

Bart Simpsonwrote:

If masks work, then why social distancing?

If social distancing works, then why is covid still spreading?

If masks work, why do people still test positive for covid even if they wear masks?

If masks and social distancing work, then why the need for a lockdown?

If covid testing is accurate, then why so many false positives?

If covid is so dangerous then why is the fatality rate less then 1%?

If covid is so dangerous then why is the vast majority of cases asymptomatic?

If covid is statistically the most dangerous for people with 3 or more preexisting conditions, then why quarantine the healthy population and not the elderly and ill?

If complete quarantine is still needed to save the few, then why are people still dying from covid?

If people are still dying from covid, then either masks, lockdown, social distancing are not effective, or testing is inaccurate and people are surely not dying of covid? 

If the vaccine is safe and effective, then why cant you take legal action against the manufacturers if you are injured by the vaccine?

Your view is pretty black and white. Mask, distancing, and  lockdown are all just strategies to reduce and minimize the spread of the virus. It’s not a single method or strategy that will fix this. All these come with a cost/benefit. Yes, lockdown is the most effective, but it is also high cost. Masks are the other end of the spectrum, less benefit but also virtually at no cost. Obviously, many have decided that complete lockdown is not acceptable, so the next best strategy is distancing...and if you are not willing/able to do that, then masks. Since masks come at virtually no cost, many now view this as a minimum effort, and I personally don’t understand such resistance to such a minimal effort. Just because we still have spread doesn’t mean these strategies don’t work. It is likely spread would be worse without implementing these strategies and it is questionable how well the US has been adhering to these strategies anyway.

Your second set of arguments look only at the mortality/health risk of Covid and completely ignores the extremely high infectivity and asymptomatic spread. The need to minimize spread among healthy people is precisely because the infectivity is high, asymptomatic spread is high, and it is those healthy people who are spreading it those most vulnerable. The risk is a combination of infectivity, ability to diagnose (either from symptoms or tests), and  mortality/mobility.These are not separate and need to be looked at in combination. Infectivity is high, the ability to diagnose (asymptomatic people, # and accuracy testing) is poor, and mortality is relatively high (at least compared to similar viruses).

People sue drug manufacturers for adverse effects all the time. Marketed drugs have been pulled for post market safety problems with some regularity, many with associated lawsuits . Proving drug safety, especially biologics and immuno-modulating drugs is very difficult. Most adverse effects are either idiosyncratic and/or pretty rare, and are difficult to predict in vitro or in animal models. Human trials just don’t typically have sufficient numbers or diversity to readily detect rare adverse effects. 

A ton of reasons we know & some we don't yet.

Many people are not wearing masks, many are not wearing them properly. 

Very few of us are washing our hand enough & at the right time.

This is war! A Virus Vs. the human race. A lot of people have just rolled over and quit! 

Easier to come online and deny than deal with what's happening.

BigFeetwrote:

https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/coronavirus/wearing-a-face-mask-is-mandatory-in-24-states/

Something not from Fox and Friends. 

Please, explain why people are still susceptible to infection when everyone is mandated to wear masks. I thought they worked? You can find article after article describing the same situation across the globe. 

Please, explain to me how you are making the point clear to everyone listening/reading that these articles back up your mandating of everyone to wear a mask? People are wearing them, and people are still catching the cootie. Really weird, huh?

Maybe you should expand your research and read some more literature. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/07/22/fact-check-new-england-journal-medicine-article-face-masks-coronavirus-covid-19-spread/5454384002/

Aritcle in question
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmp2006372

More recent articles
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2020836
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2026913

NEJM has gone as far as publishing articles saying that they May article is being misrepresented as arguing against mask use. The NEJM articles clearly support the use of masks. These articles explain why people are still susceptible. Everyone has always known that masks alone are note 100% effective at stopping transmission. That is why things like social distancing, washing hands, cleaning high touch surfaces, and testing with contact tracing are all also recommended.

Additionally, you seem to argue that everyone is wearing masks all the time yet still getting COVID. The whole point of this thread was that there are many places where people do not wear masks. So it is possible to still get COVID when masked (but less risk), and people are also getting COVID because of social contact that does not follow safety recommendations. Both things are true at the same time.

Rumney Maskswrote:

People are not "on top of each other" and thinking that makes me question if you've ever actually been there.  Sure some areas are more crowded than others, but Rumney is a big place and pre covid even the busiest areas were are akin to a gym on a moderately busy day.  Effective distancing between parties is absolutely possible.     

I have climbed almost every 10 in Rumney so I would say I have been there. You do you. All I am saying is your failing to acknowledge going to a crowded place on some level is irresponsible even if you follow all the other COVID guidelines. I simply don't see how you can't acknowledge that on some level you have responsibility beyond just wearing a mask at Rumney. If in your original post you acknowledged that being there is a problem but everyone should wear masks I would have had no problem. But calling everyone irresponsible failing to recognize that on some level your own actions are irresponsible is hypocritical. 

I guess we should all go to 1,000 person events wear a mask and then call everyone else irresponsible. 

Dan Daugherty wrote:

Is it so open that distancing is possible, hence no masks required?

If no one is around you and you are outdoors, yes research & medical community guidelines indicate that no mask is required.  My point was that distancing when actually climbing at Rumney is very possible at quieter areas within it, although I would personally still wear a mask in case other parties came by.  At busier areas, on approach, in the parking lot etc, distancing is still usually possible but medical community & RCA guidelines dictate that a mask is used in tandem. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I have climbed almost every 10 in Rumney so I would say I have been there. 

Weird flex but OK

Troy Swrote:

Weird flex but OK

He said I have never been to Rumney so I don't really know what to say that quantifies the amount of time I have spent there.

B Gwrote:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/07/22/fact-check-new-england-journal-medicine-article-face-masks-coronavirus-covid-19-spread/5454384002/

Aritcle in question
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmp2006372

More recent articles
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2020836
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2026913

NEJM has gone as far as publishing articles saying that they May article is being misrepresented as arguing against mask use. The NEJM articles clearly support the use of masks. These articles explain why people are still susceptible. Everyone has always known that masks alone are note 100% effective at stopping transmission. That is why things like social distancing, washing hands, cleaning high touch surfaces, and testing with contact tracing are all also recommended.

Additionally, you seem to argue that everyone is wearing masks all the time yet still getting COVID. The whole point of this thread was that there are many places where people do not wear masks. So it is possible to still get COVID when masked (but less risk), and people are also getting COVID because of social contact that does not follow safety recommendations. Both things are true at the same time.

A direct quote from the article I described and the one you linked to above: "We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic." - New England Journal of Medicine, May 2020

So the question is; if this study is correct it sides with the no need to wear a mask idea, and if it is not, why would it have been published? If it was wrong then, could what is being published now not be? It feels like people are just winging it right now. 

Studies and articles from around the world show that following these mask mandates do not stop or slow the infectious spread. Furthermore, infections are high and the mortality is very low, so why the mask mandates?

CDC survival rates: 

Age 0-19 — 99.997%

Age 20-49 — 99.98%

Age 50-69 — 99.5%

Age 70+ — 94.6%

The below link is to an article showing that a CDC study shows 85% of Corona patients always, or often wore masks. That is weird, right? Link to actual study in article. 

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/10/14/cdc-study-85-of-coronavirus-patients-reported-wearing-masks-always-or-often/

People aren't arguing against mask use. People are pissed that there is a mandate and fines, and possible loss of livelihood for not adhering to something proven not to work as prescribed. The cootie virus has also not shown to be as deadly as previously stated. 

Again, why are the mask mandates still ongoing? How are they helping? I'm just wanting clarification because the numbers and articles tell a different story.

P.S.

I can't post to this thread anymore today, so you guys have at it. Just be cordial to one another, please. 

BigFeetwrote:

So the question is; if this study is correct it sides with the no need to wear a mask idea, and if it is not, why would it have been published? If it was wrong then, could what is being published now not be? It feels like people are just winging it right now. 

In general you want bodies of evidence. So if 10 studies show masks are not effective and 1 study shows they are not, then masks are likely beneficial. If 1 study shows they are effective and 10 show they are not then they are probably useless. So cherry picking studies (as everyone in this thread including myself is guilty of) is kinda pointless. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

In general you want bodies of evidence. So if 10 studies show masks are not effective and 1 study shows they are not, then masks are likely beneficial. If 1 study shows they are effective and 10 show they are not then they are probably useless. So cherry picking studies (as everyone in this thread including myself is guilty of) is kinda pointless. 

Yes, for sure quantity is a big part of evaluating research, but so is relevance and quality. These, unfortunately, are usually more difficult to evaluate.

BigFeetwrote:

Studies and articles from around the world show that following these mask mandates do not stop or slow the infectious spread. 

Wrong. 

Furthermore, infections are high and the mortality is very low, so why the mask mandates?

Because 218,000 dead Americans and lots more to come, that's why.

Your first mistake was climbing at Rumney on the weekend.