Reservation System Open Forum w/ SNCC, Access Fund, BLM

The SNCC will be holding an Open Forum via Zoom to discuss the Red Rock Reservation System with the Access Fund and the BLM.

Everyone is invited, but reservations are required. (edit: Scooby points out how funny this is, but forreal please RSVP so we can get an idea of how many people will be on   )

The forum will take place October 13, 2020 at 6:30 p.m. PST via Zoom.

For more information, please see the letter from our president at the link below:

https://mailchi.mp/246231398117/red-rocks-closure-and-covid-5082506

-SNCC

Scooby Doo wrote:

Oh, the irony.

Reservations to talk about Reservations.  

I thought at first this was a troll.

Anyhow, great work as always SNCC!

Maybe we can find out more details through this open forum. It seems this necessary step was sadly overlooked before the new system was hurriedly rolled out..

I do not know if I'll be able to make the SNCC forum on Ocotober 13 because I think I'll be on the road. 

I have a few other points I would like to air however and I'm concerned that the main discussion on Mountain Project regarding the new system was shut down so no new replies can be added.

That other "locked" discussion is located here...  Red Rock to begin reservations to better control crowds

I'm going to open a new thread on Mountain Project so that people can continue to discuss pros and cons and maybe even come up with a solution.

John Hegyeswrote:

I do not know if I'll be able to make the SNCC forum on Ocotober 13 because I think I'll be on the road. 

I have a few other points I would like to air however and I'm concerned that the main discussion on Mountain Project regarding the new system was shut down so no new replies can be added.

That other "locked" discussion is located here...  Red Rock to begin reservations to better control crowds

I'm going to open a new thread on Mountain Project so that people can continue to discuss pros and cons and maybe even come up with a solution.

Feel free to continue the discussion here if you'd like, John.  We'll be watching this thread, and can use it to help guide the dialogue.  Or we'll just go follow the thread you start :)

Thanks for putting this together, SNCC.

Scooby Doo wrote:

On a serious note. My biggest curiosity is how the Park plans to divert traffic at the main entrance to the loop when the line backs up onto 159?

Signage? The portable scrolling kind?

LEO on the road?

I see a serious potential for road hazards. Between the line of cars backing up, bikers, runners, etc.

Recipe for disaster IMO.

Again thanks to SNCC and good luck getting to the bottom of this needless mess.

I wonder what they do with the people who show up with no reservation.

Southern Nevada Climbers Coalitionwrote:

Feel free to continue the discussion here if you'd like, John.  We'll be watching this thread, and can use it to help guide the dialogue.  Or we'll just go follow the thread you start :)

As I said above, I created a new thread to discuss the reservation system, since NegativeK locked the original thread.

Red Rock to begin reservations to better control crowds - Part 2

I am glad that SNCC is having a round table with the Access Fund, BLM and members of the public and I am very thankful for the effort that is being made here by the Coalition.

I am however concerned about the timing. The new reservation system was announced September 16. We were all blindsided by the new policy and no member of the public was given the opportunity to suggest solutions before the BLM made the announcement. The Zoom meeting has been scheduled to take place 27 days after the program was announced which is a regrettable delay. In fact, reservations will begin to be accepted starting October 6, so obviously the program will be already well under way by the time we finally have a time to address our concerns to the BLM. 

I do hope that the SNCC round table will be helpful and productive, but I worry that we will only get empty platitudes from the land managers because the system will already be in place, so it's unlikely that any tangible concessions will be achieved. They did not ask for any input before the program was announced, it seems highly unlikely that input would be considered after the fact.

I've been out in Red Rock a lot lately, and every climber I have spoken to has been overwhelmingly against the new policy. Nevertheless, the climbing community is a small contingent of the overall outdoor community. I don't expect the SNCC to spearhead an effort to modify or overturn the reservation system, but I hope they do get on board as a new group is formed unifying the interests of other users of the loop road like hikers and bikers.

John Hegyeswrote:

I do hope that the SNCC round table will be helpful and productive, but I worry that we will only get empty platitudes from the land managers because the system will already be in place, so it's unlikely that any tangible concessions will be achieved. They did not ask for any input before the program was announced, it seems highly unlikely that input would be considered after the fact.

This should be the first question asked - Why are we having this round table weeks after announcement and a week after implementation?  What can be said now that matters?

Pretty sure it doesn't kick in until November for this year.

Also, I doubt there's a difference between scheduling it two weeks ago and two weeks from now. Does anyone expect the BLM to pivot quickly because a small user group has significant concerns?

NegativeKwrote:

Pretty sure it doesn't kick in until November for this year.

Also, I doubt there's a difference between scheduling it two weeks ago and two weeks from now. Does anyone expect the BLM to pivot quickly because a small user group has significant concerns?

Reservations start being accepted on Recreation.gov on October 6. The meeting is six days later on October 13.

Of course the BLM will not make any changes to its plan based on concerns from our small user group - especially after the program has already started. But, the hiking community is much larger and if we can link up with them, I think we'll have an formidable community of people that are dissatisfied with how the BLM has left us high and dry.

*NegativeK, the relevant dates are published in that article from Channel 8 News that you posted.

https://www.8newsnow.com/news/local-news/red-rock-offering-reservations-to-better-control-crowdsred-rock-to-begin-reservations-to-better-control-crowds/

From that article: "Timed entry reservations will be mandatory for all visitors October 1 to May 31 between the hours of 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. Timed entry reservations will not begin this year until November 3. Timed entry reservations are not required between June 1 and September 30. Visitors must also pay an entry fee for the scenic drive...You will be able to make reservations starting Oct. 6 at this website. Recreation.gov is available 24-hours a day."

I will be without of cell service on that date but here are some of my thoughts, if you are collecting feedback:

1. The $2 fee does not go to help the BLM, but goes to a private contractor.  To cover their bets, users will probably make more reservations than they need, assuming they can get them, and then, since the fee in not refundable, will not bother to cancel. This will end up depriving even more people of the use of this precious natural resource. So this system is set up to favor commercial interests who can write off these costs, and wealthier people who can incur these costs without any hardship.  

2.  As a senior, I feel like the $2 reservation fee to access something that is covered by my lifetime pass  - access to the park - is an additional use fee.  I plan to contact the AARP to see if their lawyers are willing to investigate this.  Since this situation is not unique to RR, it is affecting a lot of seniors.

3. If the BLM wanted to reduce car traffic and parking congestion they could institute a shuttle service - using electric powered vehicles! - from an external lot, which would bypass the need for a reservation.  Zion NP uses a shuttle system like this and encourages users to enter the park this way rather than driving in and trying to find space in the limited interior lots.  They could charge a small fee for the shuttle service to cover costs if they had to.

4.  A better system would be one similar to what is used in many places in Europe using a free phone app, to route traffic to center city parking lots.  Car counting sensors at the entrance and two exits would update the total numbers of visitors in the park in real time.  A RR cell phone entry app could be designed that would let you know how many entry slots are available, also IRT, because it's being updated by the sensor info.  The actual counting with sensors is old technology - most city parking garages you enter tell you by display how many spaces are available on each level.   If desired to discourage people from driving up and waiting in line for a slot to open up,  the app could also be used to reserve an entry up to some finite time in advance, say 1 day, with an entry "ticket" with a one hour entry window, that would be texted to your phone.  I reserve and receive most of my museum and show entry tickets this way.  If they want to charge for this type of reservation, it's not nearly as egregious as the current system, because it would allow more "spontaneous" entry that would actually take into account if the parking lots were full.  

I would like to know how many entry lanes are going to be staffed between 6 - 8am and do they plan to add a lane for passholders to expedite traffic flow.  If only one lane is open, I can picture it getting busy enough that you could get in a long line at 7:30am but still get shut out if it is 8am by the time your lane has crept forward because every third vehicle needs to purchase a pass.   As was mentioned in one of the other threads, though, once they see there is a massive "rush hour" to get in before the 7:59am cut-off for entry without a reservation, it is probably only a short matter of time before reservations will be required for early morning entry, as well. 

Also, what was the BLM's logic in doing away with the carpool/parking lot that used to be accessible near the entrance before the new Visitor Center was built?  If they genuinely want to minimize traffic flow through the Loop without disenfranchising people who can't afford daily reservation fees or do not have internet access, providing a place again for people to legally park outside of the Loop would have been a great place to start.

Thanks for your feedback everyone!  Don't forget to login this evening!

Can this be recorded so those who will miss it can view it later please? Zoom makes it easy to record and upload meetings.

Gee Monetwrote:

Can this be recorded so those who will miss it can view it later please? Zoom makes it easy to record and upload meetings.

The meeting was recorded and we'll post a link soon.

Do you guys have that link so we can watch it?

Thanks.

Hey thanks for the patience guys!  Here's the link:

Thanks to everyone who attended -- your questions helped guide the discussion and make it super productive.

We're gathering all our notes from the meeting.  We intend to compile a list of concerns and issues that came from the meeting, and then use that to communicate our suggestions and guidance to address them for a path going forward with the BLM.

Update: as of last night, the reservation system does not have an option for annual pass holders.  When you buy the reservation, you MUST also buy the $15 day pass.  A gross oversight that is hopefully fixed soon.

Charlie Swrote:

Update: as of last night, the reservation system does not have an option for annual pass holders.  When you buy the reservation, you MUST also buy the $15 day pass.  A gross oversight that is hopefully fixed soon.

Charlie Swrote:

Update: as of last night, the reservation system does not have an option for annual pass holders.  When you buy the reservation, you MUST also buy the $15 day pass.  A gross oversight that is hopefully fixed soon.

Still looks like this is the case this morning. No way to buy just the $2 reservation.  When I purchased reservations on the site a few days ago, an option came up to indicate that you had an annual pass and once you clicked it, the $15 entrance was subtracted from the $17 total.  That option is not showing up at all now.

I just check too, you still have to purchase the 15$ fee to get in.