Living in Vermont, what is it like?

I'd never move back but I had some good powder days in the NE. Of course it doesn't compare with what's possible in the west.

The last straw for me was years ago we had one of the best powder dumps for the NE ever. We were al stoked to go rip it up, got of the top of the lift and EVERY trail was groomed right to the edge of the woods. We were pissed. The woods were too dense to ski. I moved. My buddys went back in the summer with saws and created a secret glade.

petzl logicwrote:

i am not saying the east is for everyone. playing the weather can be a drag. the bugs suck. if you live out west and want to ski you can drive up, or if you want to rock climb find someplace dry and drive down. i get that. but the east is not a death sentence. there are a lot of places to play with an open mind. as far as the trend of people moving west, that has been the case for a long time but I see a lot of friends that went west moving back to the hudson valley, maine, vermont, etc, because they are sick of droughts, fires, housing bs, etc. 

I gave the Northeast 43 years of my life.  I'm not bitter, it was fine.  But it's nothing compared to what's available out here.  Like, not in the same league.

The exceptions could be ice climbing and skiing, assuming it's a "good" winter which is becoming much less frequent in the Northeast.

This topic gets brought up a lot, and I'm quick to assume outdoorsy types who enjoy living in the Northeast rarely venture far from it.  You don't know what you don't know, I suppose.

Kevin Heckelerwrote:

I gave the Northeast 43 years of my life.  I'm not bitter, it was fine.  But it's nothing compared to what's available out here.  Like, not in the same league.

The exceptions could be ice climbing and skiing, assuming it's a "good" winter which is becoming much less frequent in the Northeast.

This topic gets brought up a lot, and I'm quick to assume outdoorsy types who enjoy living in the Northeast rarely venture far from it.  You don't know what you don't know, I suppose.

I don't even have to assume, because I know, that most people who complain about not being able to ski good snow in the East don't look at radars. They don't get up early, and they certainly haven't spent the last 20 years skinning from West Virginia to Maine and beyond depending on where the snow is. If someone shows up at some lame resort after a dump and all the snow is groomed when they wanted to shred pow -- it's on them.

But, you are right, good winters are a basically a myth here. The rule is when it is good, you go. If you get a foot, you meadow skip at a closed area. If the snowpack is solid and the weather is right, you head up higher. 

Also, let's say I move to Revelstoke tomorrow. My ski season will be amazing but my climbing season will be shorter. Or Flagstaff. There are some deep days and nice terrain out there but some winters are flat out bone city. So a lot of climbing and biking but pretty far drives to ski. Just about every place has tradeoffs and not every thread has to be 'shit on the East'.

Or just move to SLC, it is a lot easier and the skiing is better and more consistent. It just doesn't mean that doesn't mean it is never good in the east, that there aren't things to enjoy if someone asks, or that people don't know what else is 'out there'. I mean, already have my spot out west picked out but aint for everyone. And say Kevin, how many days do you have touring on Katahdin, George, or in the Chic Chocs? You don't know what you don't know I suppose.

The thing we're really missing are some volcanoes/glaciers. it is a damn shame we can't ski July - September. If that is a deal breaker or you're more obsessed with skiing then I am then 100% it is not the place for you. 

And I am sorry if this is coming off as more arguing than constructive. I am trying to paint a realistic picture, not just blow smoke. Hopefully I didn't make it sound too good because when you hit a stretch of 8 rainy days out of ten, well, not much you can do about that here.

Skiing and climbing both have multiple factors at play and what's important varies from person to person.

For climbing there's the size of the cliffs, quality of the rock, type of rock (granite, sandstone, sedimentary, etc.), weather, etc. If you are just into bouldering then east vs west is not going to make as much of a difference as if you want to big wall climb. These are the extremes, but you are just NOT going to climb a big wall in the East. For example I love all types of climbing, but long free routes are my favorite. The Gunks has great 2-3 pitch climbs. In the west there's tons of great 3-12+ pitch climbs, and you can climb year round by going to different elevations.

For skiing/riding there's: snow quantity, snow quality, snow frequency, terrain quality, vertical drop. If you're a ski racer, bump skier, or half pipe rider, east vs west won't make as much of a difference, but I like steeps, cliffs and deep snow. The terrain quality on the east coast can't compare to the west whether lift served or back country for that type of skiing.

Kevin Heckelerwrote:

The trend has been for people to leave the Northeast.  Weather being the primary factor.  Economy and housing costs, depending on where you live, another.

LA has its own set of issues, but they're specific to LA.  As someone from the Northeast that moved West, I would discourage you.  There's plenty of great places in the West to live that aren't a tinderbox and don't bankrupt you to make rent.  In our search for places to live in the West, LA never even made it into top 10,000 list.  Couldn't pay me to live there.  lol

... go on? The lady and I talk about moving a lot but we view climate change and fires as a real issue and end up settling back in Maine/Conway. Would like to know about these mythical towns you speak of

petzl logicwrote:

Yeah there is no good skiing on the east coast. Do not watch the forecast. Never plan on doing anything fun in places like:

Maine:

NH:

Quebec:

NY:

and certainly not vermont, which gets more snow than any of those.

i am not saying the east is for everyone. playing the weather can be a drag. the bugs suck. if you live out west and want to ski you can drive up, or if you want to rock climb find someplace dry and drive down. i get that. but the east is not a death sentence. there are a lot of places to play with an open mind. as far as the trend of people moving west, that has been the case for a long time but I see a lot of friends that went west moving back to the hudson valley, maine, vermont, etc, because they are sick of droughts, fires, housing bs, etc. 

New England sucks. Don’t photoshop pictures and bring large groups of people here. It will feel like we are climbing at Smith Rock or skiing Tahoe with the crowds.

That first pic of maine looks rad but the rest look like a mediocre day at a typical resort out west. 

If you know what you’re doing you can avoid the crowds at resorts in Tahoe and if you want backcountry it’s endless. 

Don’t kid yourself. You can have a lot of fun in the east, and all things considered it may be the best choice for you, but it’s not in the same league for skiing or many types of climbing.

To be happy in vermont, you need to enjoy social isolation to an extent. The winter hermit mode is a reality. On the other side of the coin, in summer you gotta just go, go, go..

You also gotta develop some Damned Adaptability.. you gotta do it all and  become a master of none. Be happy as with wandering in the woods in drizzle as you would be skiing pow. The natural world is huge and all encompassing. For a small state, there is andless amounts of small surprises everywhere. .. 

Skiing:Conditions are everything. As Petzl says, you gotta watch the radar and get up early sometimes... keep that headlamp handy . Skiing tight trees and shitty snow in the dusk will make you a badass skiier. Skiing couloirs and shit out west will seem so easy. We have great climbing too, but the rain does suck. You gotta have a flexible schedule.  Also, dont move to Stowe. As June points out, it's not really VT. It fucking sucks. But Mansfield is our only mountain with over a mile long ridge above treeline, and smugglers notch is amazing. So there's that. 

Don't live in Vermont, but just north of the border (can be climbing in Vermont within like 1 hour).

There are a TON of places where you would typically meet just another party at most on a typical weekend climbing day. Lots of greater, smallish crags there. Still lots of things to be bolted/cleaned too if that's your thing.

There is some sport, although I would say you'd unlock lots of great climbs if you would lead on gear as well. I'd say on the whole, the best climbing in the area tends to be gear.

Get a whole-house generator if possible, especially if you work remotely 

I live in NH, but VT is just a couple miles away across river. I think the only thing I have to add is that it helps a lot to have a flexible schedule so that you can take advantage of the good weather days. 

As a grad student with a very flexible schedule it has been awesome since I can chase those days with good conditions - whether that's dry days in the fall for climbing, powder days in the winter, or nice corn snow in the spring. But if I had to work a standard work week I think it would kind of suck, because there's some years where all of the weekends are garbage (more so for skiing than for climbing.. the years I've been here the weather has been pretty good for climbing every fall. For skiing I definitely have to chase conditions more). 

Once I graduate and get an actual job I'll probably move out West since I'll lose that flexibility.

Edited to add:

I agree with some others, most of the good climbed is on gear. If you move here it's definitely worth learning.

And glowering: there is some amazing ski terrain in the North East, you just need to know where to look. Very underrated, in my opinion..

a beachwrote:

... go on? The lady and I talk about moving a lot but we view climate change and fires as a real issue and end up settling back in Maine/Conway. Would like to know about these mythical towns you speak of

The issue with California is it's a desert... for some of the year.  The rainy season (winter) is enough to support brush and some species of trees.  So there's a lot of growth, but also a lot of prolonged periods of dry that make wildfires part of life (well before human impacts).

If fire makes you squeamish, then moving to the rural West is not for you.  That said, there's many cities that have been here since we started settling 150 years ago that haven't been burned to the ground.  The places you see on fire in the news are mostly cases of encroachment into wilderness, where wildfires have always been and always will be, and where man clearly isn't in charge. 

The smoke isn't great, in Vegas it comes and goes (mostly stays away).

I'm more worried about water running out.  With any luck cities will continue with restrictions and a push for desert landscaping (yes, people still try to grow lawns out here... for reals).

Earthquakes?  Yeah, we all must be crazy to live here.  And everyone visiting who goes home and packs their bags (kinda like we did) and moves here, crazier.

So back to your (insincere?) question... Flagstaff, Vegas, Grand Junction, Reno ... I guess Salt Lake City, were on the short list.  Boulder priced itself out a decade ago.  San Francisco, San Jose and LA aren't close enough to where we wanted to be for our outdoors interests, and are expensive/overcrowded.  Bishop just isn't quite big enough, worried about employment.

Kevin Heckelerwrote:

The issue with California is it's a desert... for some of the year.  The rainy season (winter) is enough to support brush and some species of trees.  So there's a lot of growth, but also a lot of prolonged periods of dry that make wildfires part of life (well before human impacts).

If fire makes you squeamish, then moving to the rural West is not for you.  That said, there's many cities that have been here since we started settling 150 years ago that haven't been burned to the ground.  The places you see on fire in the news are mostly cases of encroachment into wilderness, where wildfires have always been and always will be, and where man clearly isn't in charge. 

The smoke isn't great, in Vegas it comes and goes (mostly stays away).

I'm more worried about water running out.  With any luck cities will continue with restrictions and a push for desert landscaping (yes, people still try to grow lawns out here... for reals).

Earthquakes?  Yeah, we all must be crazy to live here.  And everyone visiting who goes home and packs their bags (kinda like we did) and moves here, crazier.

So back to your (insincere?) question... Flagstaff, Vegas, Grand Junction, Reno ... I guess Salt Lake City, were on the short list.  Boulder priced itself out a decade ago.  San Francisco, San Jose and LA aren't close enough to where we wanted to be for our outdoors interests, and are expensive/overcrowded.  Bishop just isn't quite big enough, worried about employment.

Not insincere, thanks for responding! The water thing also seems like a concern. Bishop seems pretty rad.

Gloweringwrote:

That first pic of maine looks rad but the rest look like a mediocre day at a typical resort out west. 

If you know what you’re doing you can avoid the crowds at resorts in Tahoe and if you want backcountry it’s endless. 

Don’t kid yourself. You can have a lot of fun in the east, and all things considered it may be the best choice for you, but it’s not in the same league for skiing or many types of climbing.

1 year I had a Kirkwood pass. I skied so much deep snow there. Another year I went back and it was dry and shitty as a resort in PA. That was before I climbed. Tahoe has some great stuff and I hope you get an epic season. And maybe my pics looked typical to you, but they were good avy terrain and no one around for miles and miles. I think that's rad anywhere.

I just want to say thank you to everyone who posted! The comments and insights were all greatly appreciated.  It's great to see some passion about this topic, my gf and myself have not made any final decsion about what the future holds - but getting the lay of the land about the North East from real people is so valuable.

Thanks,

Nick

Nick Ludwigwrote:

I just want to say thank you to everyone who posted! The comments and insights were all greatly appreciated.  It's great to see some passion about this topic, my gf and myself have not made any final decsion about what the future holds - but getting the lay of the land about the North East from real people is so valuable.

Something you didn't mention - how important are all the things other than outdoor activities? Meaning, do you want to attend professional sports events? What about major concerts? Theater? Do you want a choice of a dozed dozen great sushi restaurants or are you happy with the one average one in town? How important is easy air travel? Stuff like that......

[Edit to fix 'dozed']

Marc,

I don't need a dozen great sushi restaurants or easy access to attend professional sporting events but I see your point.

Nick Ludwigwrote:

I just want to say thank you to everyone who posted! The comments and insights were all greatly appreciated.  It's great to see some passion about this topic, my gf and myself have not made any final decsion about what the future holds - but getting the lay of the land about the North East from real people is so valuable.

Thanks,

Nick

just get ready to share in the inferiority complex that is the outdoors in the northeast, it’s the best part!

Gloweringwrote:

That first pic of maine looks rad but the rest look like a mediocre day at a typical resort out west. 

If you know what you’re doing you can avoid the crowds at resorts in Tahoe and if you want backcountry it’s endless. 

Don’t kid yourself. You can have a lot of fun in the east, and all things considered it may be the best choice for you, but it’s not in the same league for skiing or many types of climbing.

Housing prices in Tahoe go for about $600k minimum? average house in VT or NH say it’s $250k? That’s 350k plus interest that would allow you to travel throughout your life to world destinations. So depending on your career/income, that plays a big factor into things

Tahoe, Mammoth, etc have bigger/better. But most people aren’t making 6 figures to afford  the same life. I moved to NH so I can retire by 40 at my current job. If I was living in Tahoe I would be destined to working until 60+. So longterm “lifestyle” is another factor.

Nick Ludwigwrote:

Marc,

I don't need a dozen great sushi restaurants or easy access to attend professional sporting events but I see your point.

Yeah. I think it's important to remember that despite a person's focus on outdoor activities in selecting a place to live, the truth is that they'll spend the vast majority of their hours not doing that stuff, so the other stuff needs to be taken into account. As an example, we've driven to Vegas and flown to California to see major bands that skipped over SLC. Living in Burlington VT can easily mean going to Montreal, Hartford, or Boston to see your favorite band in an arena concert. What's necessary is to figure out what's important to you in a place to live. Consider interactions with the townspeople and the socio-political climate of a place as well.