Adjustment of existing lines

David Gibbs    wrote:
 

I would say that a bit of run-out 5.7 on a 5.10 route is, even now, completely acceptable bolting.

John Byrneswrote:

I would say: maybe. If it's bullet granite or the like, without ledge-fall potential, sure. If there's the possibility of a hold breaking and a spine-crushing fall, then no.

I should perhaps clarify what I mean by "a bit run-out" -- if I've got 2m bolt spacing in the crux of the 5.10 route, the bolts would likely be closer to 4-5m apart in the easier (e.g. 5.7) sections of the route.

John Byrneswrote:

The OP asked about "an older sport route being rebolted at a sport climbing area"  NOT a trad route. Sport climbing is supposed to be safe and I'm really tired, like decades of tired, of old traddies applying their ethics to sport climbing, especially when so many of the old bolted trad routes are on slabs.

And since you mention Bruce, I did a lot of climbing with my "Evil Twin" including The Moratorium, Astroman, N Face of the Rostrum, and the Ho Chi Min trail which is quite run-out and had, at the time, shitty bolts to boot.   I've done my share, maybe more, of run-out slabs with 1/4" button-heads and StarDryves.   I also know trad FA's are not gods any more than sport FA's, they make mistakes just like everyone else.  

actually, if we don't pick and chose half truths the way politicians do, the OP said: "an older sport route being rebolted at a sport climbing area and in that process, more bolts are added and lines adjusted"

-that is NOT rebolting, it is pure retrobolting.  it is changing the FA, their vision, their work, their ethics, because you think that you are better, right, etc. and that just because something is labelled a 'sport' climb (frequently not even by the FA, but others such as yourself or the OP) it is okay to add bolts and change lines.  this is about imposing your values, etc. and disregarding what the FA wanted, meant, and did.

-many 'older sport routes' (from smith to verdon, etc.) are NOT tightly bolted.

- i don't consider myself an old ?trady? (whatever that means), just someone who likes to climb.  heck, if we believe MP then i climb 54.7% trad and 45.3% sport.  but, i'll freely admit, i'll never match your 100% sport record of one climb.  i have no problem calling out someone for doing what i think is a poor bolting job and most people who've put up FAs, including myself, have been subject to that type of criticism.  it goes with the territory.  that said, i'm not going to retrobolt and adjust someone elses lines just because 'i' think that 'they' made a 'mistake!' - you are the one giving yourself 'god' status...

in terms of brutus, he was the one who got me interested in and taught me a lot about rebolting.  i'm still climbing (including FAs) with em, who is a dear friend.

What do people think about lines that don’t see any ascents and remain covered in vegetation because they are objectively dangerous. Don’t know if this applies to the OP or not. It kinda seems like in the case of a long forgotten route the community in an unspoken way “decided” that retro bolting should be seriously considered. If we consider the rock a “resource” and have already established it as a climb, wouldn’t the general consensus be to make it something that actually gets climbed....

old5tenwrote:

actually, if we don't pick and chose half truths the way politicians do, the OP said: "an older sport route being rebolted at a sport climbing area and in that process, more bolts are added and lines adjusted"

-that is NOT rebolting, it is pure retrobolting.  

No, it's not pure anything.   There's a spectrum which you seem unwilling to acknowledge.   For example, a route in Rifle was rebolted a few years ago because the bolts were corroding.    The bolts had been placed in a straight line on rappel, and the obvious crux was clipping #6 which was 6' right of where the holds were; it made the grade about 2 letter grades higher.  The FA made a mistake that was common in that day and age.   

So the person who rebolted it moved #6 about 3' left, so it could be clipped from the holds everyone used.   The LINE of the climbing didn't change, and only one bolt moved.  Can you see and acknowledge that?  

it is changing the FA, their vision, their work, their ethics, because you think that you are better, right, etc. and that just because something is labelled a 'sport' climb (frequently not even by the FA, but others such as yourself or the OP) it is okay to add bolts and change lines.  this is about imposing your values, etc. and disregarding what the FA wanted, meant, and did.

Nope.  Since you seem so adamant about this, I'm not even gonna bother arguing with you.  It'd be futile.

-many 'older sport routes' (from smith to verdon, etc.) are NOT tightly bolted.

I've climbed in the Verdon and many of the routes are bolted trad routes, just like many routes in Tuolumne that you are familiar with. In the 80s & 90s many routes were loosely bolted by trad climbers and called Sport routes but they were not.

- i don't consider myself an old ?trady? (whatever that means), just someone who likes to climb.  heck, if we believe MP then i climb 54.7% trad and 45.3% sport.  but, i'll freely admit, i'll never match your 100% sport record of one climb.  

Wow, I'm being denigrated because I don't enter my climbing record on MP.   Considering that I was climbing over 20 years before MP existed, it was always kinda too late to start.

i have no problem calling out someone for doing what i think is a poor bolting job and most people who've put up FAs, including myself, have been subject to that type of criticism.  it goes with the territory.  that said, i'm not going to retrobolt and adjust someone elses lines just because 'i' think that 'they' made a 'mistake!' - you are the one giving yourself 'god' status...

Wait!  So you make mistakes and then suffer the criticism but wouldn't be happy that someone fixed it without your permission.  Wow.   Obviously, it's futile trying to discuss this with you.

in terms of brutus, he was the one who got me interested in and taught me a lot about rebolting.  i'm still climbing (including FAs) with em, who is a dear friend.

Brutus was also always quick to point out when a bolt was poorly placed.  

old5tenwrote:

'm still climbing (including FAs) with em, who is a dear friend.

Please tell her hello!  We've defineatly lost touch after the memorial.

John Byrnes wrote:

Wow, I'm being denigrated because I don't enter my climbing record on MP.   Considering that I was climbing over 20 years before MP existed, it was always kinda too late to start.

You can enter your "ticks" as far back as you'd like.  As an aside, its kind of a neat database.  

Brutus was also always quick to point out when a bolt was poorly placed.  

We (he, Em and I) bailed from Santaquin Canyon ice climbing and went to American Fork to check out some sports climbing just for fun.  There was a leaver biner way up on License to Thrill.  Bruce soloed up in his plastic ice climbing boots and grabbed that booty then down climbed. The whole time commenting on the bolt placements.  Hilarious, and, amazing.  He had some horsepower for sure. 

To the OP, its such a mixed bag that's very much area, route, style and person dependant.  Pretty big differences between "traditional" sport type routes and routes established purely from the top down.

Brian in SLCwrote:

Please tell her hello!  We've defineatly lost touch after the memorial.

John Byrnes wrote:

Wow, I'm being denigrated because I don't enter my climbing record on MP.   Considering that I was climbing over 20 years before MP existed, it was always kinda too late to start.

You can enter your "ticks" as far back as you'd like.  As an aside, its kind of a neat database.  

Brutus was also always quick to point out when a bolt was poorly placed.  

We (he, Em and I) bailed from Santaquin Canyon ice climbing and went to American Fork to check out some sports climbing just for fun.  There was a leaver biner way up on License to Thrill.  Bruce soloed up in his plastic ice climbing boots and grabbed that booty then down climbed. The whole time commenting on the bolt placements.  Hilarious, and, amazing.  He had some horsepower for sure. 

To the OP, its such a mixed bag that's very much area, route, style and person dependant.  Pretty big differences between "traditional" sport type routes and routes established purely from the top down.

she's actually just down the hill from me and doing great.  i'm sure she'd respond if you reached out to her ;-)

John Byrneswrote:

No, it's not pure anything.   There's a spectrum which you seem unwilling to acknowledge.   For example, a route in Rifle was rebolted a few years ago because the bolts were corroding.    The bolts had been placed in a straight line on rappel, and the obvious crux was clipping #6 which was 6' right of where the holds were; it made the grade about 2 letter grades higher.  The FA made a mistake that was common in that day and age.   

So the person who rebolted it moved #6 about 3' left, so it could be clipped from the holds everyone used.   The LINE of the climbing didn't change, and only one bolt moved.  Can you see and acknowledge that?  

Nope.  Since you seem so adamant about this, I'm not even gonna bother arguing with you.  It'd be futile.

I've climbed in the Verdon and many of the routes are bolted trad routes, just like many routes in Tuolumne that you are familiar with. In the 80s & 90s many routes were loosely bolted by trad climbers and called Sport routes but they were not.

Wow, I'm being denigrated because I don't enter my climbing record on MP.   Considering that I was climbing over 20 years before MP existed, it was always kinda too late to start.

Wait!  So you make mistakes and then suffer the criticism but wouldn't be happy that someone fixed it without your permission.  Wow.   Obviously, it's futile trying to discuss this with you.

Brutus was also always quick to point out when a bolt was poorly placed.  

ok, so the reason #6 was moved was because the original clip made the grade 2 letter grades higher.  of course, we are ignoring that the FA climbed the route in the originally bolted condition and chose not to change anything.  this really goes back to dumbing things down to the lowest common denominator.  should we maybe make holds a little bigger in order to facilitate easier clips?  heck, we call it a sport route, so it should just be as easy and convenient as we can make it.  

if i disagree with how you bolted a route i should just come by and 'fix' your 'mistake'?  no thanks to that...

i can see moving a bolt for safety reasons (and would still consult with the FA beforehand), but for the convenience of clipping when the FA clipped that way?

beyond that, the OP asked about 'adding bolts' and 'adjusting of existing lines' - you're off on a tangent about moving bolts without addressing the OPs question.

i guess the half truths are followed up by a bit of hypocrisy -  you seem to have no problem labelling others (traddies, etc.) or speaking for them, but feel 'denigrated' when someone refers to your MP record.  btw, i've been climbing since well before MP also and still manage to log stuff.  it's a choice i made, not an excuse ('it was always kinda too late to start')

'Brutus was also always quick to point out when a bolt was poorly placed.'  yep, and he'd be the last person to go out and 'fix' it without at least trying to reach the FA...

David Gibbswrote:

I should perhaps clarify what I mean by "a bit run-out" -- if I've got 2m bolt spacing in the crux of the 5.10 route, the bolts would likely be closer to 4-5m apart in the easier (e.g. 5.7) sections of the route.

Depending on the route, that might be just fine.   But if the 5.7 part is just less than vertical choss, it might not be.  And with a salute to Old5Ten, let me add... on a sport route.  On a 10-pitch trad route, having to navigate chossy, unprotectable easy terrain is part (the scary part) of the challenge.  

old5tenwrote:

ok, so the reason #6 was moved was because the original clip made the grade 2 letter grades higher.  of course, we are ignoring that the FA climbed the route in the originally bolted condition and chose not to change anything. 

The FA was redpointing 5.13+ at the time, and the route is rated 11c, so he probably didn't notice a few moves of 12a.   And don't say the rating should be changed.   The rating is correct, it's just the bolt was put in the wrong place.

 this really goes back to dumbing things down to the lowest common denominator.  

There you go with that old trad ethic again.   As I remember, the correct response was "If you don't like the bolt, you don't have to clip it".  

should we maybe make holds a little bigger in order to facilitate easier clips?  heck, we call it a sport route, so it should just be as easy and convenient as we can make it.  

if i disagree with how you bolted a route i should just come by and 'fix' your 'mistake'?  no thanks to that...

You think I'm gonna live forever so you can ask?   You think I never make mistakes?  I do.   You think holds, that once made the clip on the line, don't ever break off?   From what you've said, you've climbed mostly on bomber Sierra granite.  Other rock isn't so bomber, and things change.  

i can see moving a bolt for safety reasons (and would still consult with the FA beforehand), but for the convenience of clipping when the FA clipped that way?

How do you know the hold the FA used is still there?   How do you know that the FA didn't say to himself, "shit, I wish I'd put that over there"?    Again, you act like FA's never make mistakes and the rock doesn't ever change.

beyond that, the OP asked about 'adding bolts' and 'adjusting of existing lines' - you're off on a tangent about moving bolts without addressing the OPs question.

I think I more than adequately answered the OP's question, above.  

i guess the half truths are followed up by a bit of hypocrisy -  you seem to have no problem labelling others (traddies, etc.) or speaking for them, but feel 'denigrated' when someone refers to your MP record.  btw, i've been climbing since well before MP also and still manage to log stuff.  it's a choice i made, not an excuse ('it was always kinda too late to start')

Good grief Old5Ten, you are quite amazing.  I've never kept a log of all my routes, either before or after MP.  In the old days I'd put a tick-mark next to a route in the guidebook.  Lately I put a tick-mark and a date.  I realize many people like to keep a detailed log, I'm just not one of them.  

Edit: I just figured out how to delete a tick on MP, so now I have no ticks.   Happy now?

John Byrneswrote:

...bomber Sierra granite.  

now that is truly hilarious... ;-)

This is absolute classic toe-to-toe forum battle. Love it. Good hard-boiled arguments, mostly devoid of snark fluff. 

But... Sierra granite is relatively bomber  

,
The Sierra is a big place with lots of varied rock. .

The word ‘relatively’ in italics for a reason. 

Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Assuming  that  old guy  is Clint.   I have  always  respected your  energy that you put  into  replacing  old  mank  but  never  understood  the obsession  with  using the same hole. Us  Fa  folks  make  mistakes all the time.  It  certainly is proper to ask  the  fa  about bolt  count  but  minor  tweaks  are part of the job.   Just  don't mess up with any of my  routs  ;)

John Byrneswrote:

Depending on the route, that might be just fine.   But if the 5.7 part is just less than vertical choss, it might not be.  And with a salute to Old5Ten, let me add... on a sport route.  On a 10-pitch trad route, having to navigate chossy, unprotectable easy terrain is part (the scary part) of the challenge.  

I try to clean the choss off before I put any bolts into the rock.  

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

,
The Sierra is a big place with lots of varied rock. .

yes!  bulletproof to kitty litter, it's all there...  some of the rock is so bad that you can literally crumble it in your fingers.

I’ve put up hundreds of routes, probably about 95% of them ground up and hand drilled on a stance. I’ve missed holds and made things harder for myself, dropped bolts, drills, wrenches, a hammer, ran out of bolts, hangers, been caught in hail storms while drilling on slabs, dead batteries, run out of water, daylight, motivation, funked a piton our into my shin, had rockfall cut my rope and even had the end of my rope slip through my grigri when solo belaying out in the middle of nowhere leaving me unexpectedly free soloing some sketchy shit. Shit happens!

 I’ve run out a lot of stuff, sometimes through hard sections, sometimes terrifyingly so for one reason or another. Never because I thought I would be more bad ass or whatever. Just trying to get to the top. So when someone wants to retrobolt my routes, for whatever reason, I don’t have a problem with it. As long as they bolt it in the same way I did. If it was top down, then do what ever you can on rappel that makes it better. If it was ground up, then do whatever you can ground up. Sometimes the “best line” isn’t the most “natural line”. Let the rock dictate the route. I’ve passed up a lot of opportunities to place bolts and better protect a route for various reasons listed above. 

As for the sport routes, you have to take the style into consideration. Not all “sport” routes are the same. Some have supplemental gear that is just sketchy or hard to place. Some are run out, but safe, just scary. Some are meant to be stick clipped, or bouldered using good judgment in competency. Some were put up by strong, experienced climbers who worked the moves by toproping the shit out of it before bolting and then sent on the first try, and some were put up by kids who don’t know jack about shit. It’s all relevant and takes good, sound judgment, by an experienced climber to make the call. A bit of communication goes a long way as well. 

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

I’ve put up hundreds of routes, probably about 95% of them ground up and hand drilled on a stance. I’ve missed holds and made things harder for myself, dropped bolts, drills, wrenches, a hammer, ran out of bolts, hangers, been caught in hail storms while drilling on slabs, dead batteries, run out of water, daylight, motivation, funked a piton our into my shin, had rockfall cut my rope and even had the end of my rope slip through my grigri when solo belaying out in the middle of nowhere leaving me unexpectedly free soloing some sketchy shit. Shit happens!

 I’ve run out a lot of stuff, sometimes through hard sections, sometimes terrifyingly so for one reason or another. Never because I thought I would be more bad ass or whatever. Just trying to get to the top. So when someone wants to retrobolt my routes, for whatever reason, I don’t have a problem with it. As long as they bolt it in the same way I did. If it was top down, then do what ever you can on rappel that makes it better. If it was ground up, then do whatever you can ground up. Sometimes the “best line” isn’t the most “natural line”. Let the rock dictate the route. I’ve passed up a lot of opportunities to place bolts and better protect a route for various reasons listed above. 

As for the sport routes, you have to take the style into consideration. Not all “sport” routes are the same. Some have supplemental gear that is just sketchy or hard to place. Some are run out, but safe, just scary. Some are meant to be stick clipped, or bouldered using good judgment in competency. Some were put up by strong, experienced climbers who worked the moves by toproping the shit out of it before bolting and then sent on the first try, and some were put up by kids who don’t know jack about shit. It’s all relevant and takes good, sound judgment, by an experienced climber to make the call. A bit of communication goes a long way as well. 

Bam!  I wanted to do more than just give this post a Thumbs-up.    All excellent points and an excellent attitude based on broad experience.  

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

I’ve put up hundreds of routes, probably about 95% of them ground up and hand drilled on a stance. I’ve missed holds and made things harder for myself, dropped bolts, drills, wrenches, a hammer, ran out of bolts, hangers, been caught in hail storms while drilling on slabs, dead batteries, run out of water, daylight, motivation, funked a piton our into my shin, had rockfall cut my rope and even had the end of my rope slip through my grigri when solo belaying out in the middle of nowhere leaving me unexpectedly free soloing some sketchy shit. Shit happens!

yep, that sounds about right ;-)  could add some glue-in experiences too, wrong sized bit, glue dried to fast, etc.

As for the sport routes, you have to take the style into consideration. Not all “sport” routes are the same. 

that is a point i tried to make earlier.  'sport' routes cover a wide spectrum of routes.  a lot of people think that sport routes are by definition tightly bolted, safe, etc. when in reality different eras, locations, and FAs had very different styles and not everything needs to be retrobolted to assimilate someone's individual notion of 'sport' climbing style... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9I9C9CZ3lc   

Good thoughtful arguments- discussion.

The only thing I will add is this: We climbers still can’t come to an agreement on just what a “sport climb” is exactly.
The OPs question is still sort of vague...... adding bolts to an “older sport route at a new sport crag....” 

I wonder WTF he means???? Exactly.

I was very happy to have a bunch of old 1/4” stuff returned to me after the good Yosemite folks replaced the bolts - hole for hole- on a  climb I put up with some friends, eons ago.

This was State of the Art in 1976. I have them around to remind myself of when we were adventurous- all 3 of us took 60 foot sliders onto the anchors - the long 1.5 inch ones at the top. I’m happy the bolts got up-dated but I wouldn’t be if the climb go retro-bolted and looked like something straight out of Holcomb.

RIP Brutus of Wyde

RIP Tom Higgins

RIP Bob Kamps 

RIP Mark Powell

All great climbers who shaped my views!

Edit- old5ten ThankYou for posting the video.