Climbers Against Bolting
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I suppose I should preface this with a statement: This is NOT a troll. I'm aware of my reputation and I admit I usually don't take the forums as seriously as some would like me to. So take the following as you like it. Although the MP crowd may loathe it, there exists a community of climbers in the real world who are committed to bolt-less development, who see the rock itself as sacred, and take all reasonable effort to avoid permanently altering the land in which they play in. This thread is for all of those people with a collective goal of stopping the bolts. It's been the slippery slope over the years since bolting started, first it was only from a stance, then it was only ground up, then it was on rappel and only when "needed". Now, it's to save everyone from their lack of skill, or to save one tree, or to "spread out the crowd". The climbers of today will think of any excuse they can to add a bolt or squeeze in a new line. The consequences have been obvious and bolters are in denial. Somehow, bolting has slipped through a loophole in the system as a similar practice from so many other outdoor vocations would never pass the smell test. We got away with it all for a long time but personally I can no longer turn the other cheek and allow such permanent damage to occur on our public lands. As a Climber Against Bolting I propose a bolting ban on all public lands and a strict one-to-one bolting replacement policy along with strong oversight from the authority with jurisdiction. It's actually saddening to me to propose this but I believe it is necessary in order stop the unethical treatment of our public lands. |
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Might just as well retitled this climbers against climbing. |
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So, rocks are sacred because they give life to the planet, and they transfer CO2 to Oxygen, and they provide renewable building materials for us to make homes, and they... oh wait, im thinking of water and trees. Wait, what do cliff bands do again, besides look pretty and give us a place to recreat? How about you take up a cause to save some trees, or some wildlife, or a waterway, or some industrial farm animals that are being killed for food and polluting the planet in the process? Rocks are rocks. They are inanimate objects that don't need your protection. Oh boy, some sand fell out of a 3 1/2" deep hole. Now what are we going to do? You didn't even give a reasonable argument why we should accept your opinion. We're not "altering the land" by adding bolts, we're altering a rock face. How about going after ATV'ers, or "mudders", or commercial fisherman, or coal fired power plants?? They are altering the land and the environment. Your argument is weak. And no, this won't win you a Silent Partner. If you care about "altering the land" aka, "rocks," (in your head) how about you go after coal companies dynamiting entire mountain tops? That would be a worthy cause. |
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Needs to be Climbers Really Against Bolting (CRAB). I’ll buy the t-shirt and wear it until it becomes popular and mainstream. Which should last me a while. |
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You won't win the Silent Partner with this one. |
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RRR wrote: End of thread We can all go home now. I'm a mining engineer and can say one mine is worse than all the bolting in the United States. Rock ain't sacred, it's cold, dead, and good for nothing else than climbing. If you though it was sacred you wouldn't place any pro or break off any holds, you'd free solo everything. |
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Pepe LePoseur wrote: lol tradibanned has crabs |
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Finally, someone who shares my love of pitons! |
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The CAB crew is hard to love. And who is their Jesus? Ken Nichols? Shawn Snyder? |
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Tradiban wrote: You?? Aren’t you the one who wanted bolts added to a whole mess of climbs at T&S? Climbs done in the 50/60s by people who climbed in hiking boots. That was you, Mr. “trad” right? IIRC you advocated to make these “safe” for all. —————————————————————- Keric L wrote:........ One thing I've never understood about the debate over the ethics of bolting is why we get so caught up in the how. Why does it matter if the person who bolted it did it in any particular style? Why does incurring greater personal risk make a route more worthy of having been put up? Harder climbs often can't be established in the ground up, or stance style. Even Adam Ondra can't bolt a 5.15 by stancing. ...... ————————————————————— Keric, you sound like a smart person. If you really want to understand the progression of bolting acceptance go over the history of the sport from the beginning. Every climber knew that if you made a bolt ladder and did direct aid you could climb anything. But that would be no fun. |
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Well, obviously, Tradiban's "proposal" is irrealistic and unworkable. No one has dictatorial power over all cliffs. If you can't get climbers to no poop & leave TP all over the place, it's hard for me to see how you would " [... put in place ] a bolting ban on all public lands and a strict one-to-one bolting replacement policy along with strong oversight from the authority with jurisdiction.". I think would have greatly helped your stated goal of not being a troll if you had choosen not to propose something that's obviously not going to happen. Nor something that is in fact desirable - any such "authority" is unlikely to understand climbing all that well, and I certainly don't want any obese bureaucrat behind a desk to determine what makes sense or not wrt to climbing. |
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Trying to win that Silent Partner? You know that with your posting history, it is basically impossible to take you seriously even if you claim “this is not a troll”..:Boy who cried wolf and all. |
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If you don’t do _______ exactly like I do then we should get the gubment involved and ban you. Fuck off back to wherever you came from and leave people alone. |
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All the posts telling him he won’t win the silent partner are bringing OP ever-closer to winning the silent partner. |
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There was a brief moment of purity when the clean climbing manual was published in 1970 or so. It lasted for a few months and dragged on for a few years, five years at the most. It peaked at the same time as rock and roll music did. After that people kept bolting. All the big name purists of the era with a couple exceptions went on to bolt routes. Many Yosemite masters became sport climbers and bolted sport routes top down. The hold outs were few and far between. Even John Bachar bolted routes. Peter Croft? He has bolted. Royal Robbins? He bolted too. They debated how you should bolt , not if you might bolt. All that said, I predict that at some point there will be a great bolting pogrom just because there will be nothing left to do and "climbing," needs to keep moving forward. I don't think we are there yet. |
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show me on the doll where the bolt touched you |
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You claim to be sensitive to the "impact to public lands".......and this......THIS is the mode of impact that you find most troubling.......or troubling enough to propose a ban on its practice??? Are you aware of the broad array of uses and impacts to the nation's public lands? |
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I'll help you get that Silent Partner! Cause you're unlikely to find one that can talk and is still willing to climb with you. Let's up the stakes a bit. Mountain bikes are mechanical devices, and aren't allowed in wilderness areas. SLCDs are also mechanical devices. Ban them in wilderness areas. And tricams, you're on thin ice! |
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Just don't bolt the cracks please. Remember that style is the most important thing, and bolder is better style. Second most important thing, respect the fa. Leave bold routes as test pieces for the mentally strong, and let the sportos have their cushy perma drawed caves. If you rap bolt, at least bolt with the intention of not allowing the climber to deck. Dialing in a "bold" route that was rap bolted and then putting up the Fa is bad style. |
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Tradiban wrote: Tell me about those sweet alpine environments that would see almost no humans except for trad climbing in? Now contrast that to another bolt line in clear creek canyon on the side of the road. Which causes more harm? |
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Robert S wrote: Isn’t he already a winner? Doesn’t he own the Silent Partner? Oh who can keep track nowadays |