Red Rock to begin reservations to better control crowds

I've felt for the last few years that red rock had jumped the shark from "crowded but manageable" to "maybe more of a shitshow than its worth". This could be the final nail in the coffin, or it could be a good thing. I though the Yos permits this year were going to suck, but they haven't been that hard to come by, and the park being less crowded has been awesome. So buck up Vegasites (Vegasians? Vegans?) it might not be that bad. 

Ashortwrote:

Editing because I have poor reading comprehension. So this doesn't apply to pull offs on 159?

I have poor reading comprehension too. I just jumped to thinking about the 159 pullouts. Hope it does not apply to those. 

phylp phylpwrote:

I have poor reading comprehension too. I just jumped to thinking about the 159 pullouts. Hope it does not apply to those. 

The pullouts John Hegyes referenced (“First Creek, Mount Wilson and Oak Creek”) are State Route 159 pullouts.

Ashortwrote:

What, closing times for highway pullouts? I didn't notice at oak creek pull off this weekend, but I wasnt paying attention. This is terrible. 

Editing because I have poor reading comprehension. So this doesn't apply to pull offs on 159?

Hey, sorry, my mistake. 

I was talking about pullouts on Highway 159 specifically the First Creek tralhead. There is also a "Parking Lot Closing Times" sign at the South Oak Creek trailhead on 159. I'll post a photo below. I don't understand how the BLM can enforce parking on a state highway.

That is the sign at First Creek, on Highway 159, which is outside the Loop Road.

I'm not sure what anyone expected given the absurd crowding, with people parking right in front of flashing electric signs saying "NO PARKING, BUTTBIRDS" and climbers vanlifing along 159 and making a mess.

This is an annoying solution, but doing nothing and letting more and more people dook in the canyons and park on cacti wasn't a solution at all.

Hopefully they'll roll it back after the pandemic ends and people stop dying from hanging out inside, but the announcement definitely wasn't written that way. Maybe we'll go back to doing cocaine like in the 80s and the outdoors won't be popular anymore.

Wow, that's just....

Where we supposed to park for full moon summer climbers? 

NegativeKwrote:

I'm not sure what anyone expected given the absurd crowding, with people parking right in front of flashing electric signs saying "NO PARKING, BUTTBIRDS" and climbers vanlifing along 159 and making a mess.

This is an annoying solution, but doing nothing and letting more and more people dook in the canyons and park on cacti wasn't a solution at all.

Hopefully they'll roll it back after the pandemic ends and people stop dying from hanging out inside, but the announcement definitely wasn't written that way. Maybe we'll go back to doing cocaine like in the 80s and the outdoors won't be popular anymore.

Small chance. Once the feds increase regs, they rarely roll them back unless there is some financial gain to be had.

NegativeKwrote:

I'm not sure what anyone expected given the absurd crowding, with people parking right in front of flashing electric signs saying "NO PARKING, BUTTBIRDS" and climbers vanlifing along 159 and making a mess.

This is an annoying solution, but doing nothing and letting more and more people dook in the canyons and park on cacti wasn't a solution at all.

Hopefully they'll roll it back after the pandemic ends and people stop dying from hanging out inside, but the announcement definitely wasn't written that way. Maybe we'll go back to doing cocaine like in the 80s and the outdoors won't be popular anymore.

I for one will be doing nut tool bumps at belay stations

I just spoke to John Asselin at the Southern Nevada District Office of the BLM.  He was very receptive and compassionate, and forthcoming with answers to my questions.  I really appreciate his transparency and his willingness to have an open dialogue about these issues.  There is no doubt that they have a tough job, and overcrowding certainly is an issue at Red Rock.  Keep in mind, Red Rock is a National CONSERVATION Area.  John made it clear that they are committed to recreational access, but managing these lands and protecting them is their number one priority.  They know that climbers (while not constituting a large percentage of the overall visitors) are a very important user group and that they look to us for information and updates about what is happening back in the canyons because we are the ones back there!  

The bottom line is that they are listening and are willing to work with us (the climbing community) as best they can.  So instead of fretting about it online and spreading misinformation, reach out and voice your concerns.  As climbing and outdoor recreation/tourism continue to increase, it is more important than ever to ensure that we have good relations with land managing agencies and maintain open lines of communication.  It goes both ways.  

John has looked at this thread and had this to say about the 159 pullouts, specifically (posted with his permission):

• "On the signs in the parking lots outside the Scenic Drive, those are not posted by the BLM. We have had rangers remove them in the past, but they seem to keep popping up. Management is going to send out rangers to remove them again. The Scenic Drive hours only apply to the Scenic Drive, the Red Spring parking lot (not Kraft Mountain parking lot -- that stays open) and the Overlook parking lot on SR159 between the entrance and exit of the Scenic Drive."

He asked me to share his email address and encouraged folks to reach out if they have any more questions and concerns.  

jasselin@blm.gov

Peace and Love! 

If BLM is not posting the signs, I wonder who is?

Anybody have a guess?

Will Manesswrote:

I just spoke to John Asselin at the Southern Nevada District Office of the BLM.  He was very receptive and compassionate, and forthcoming with answers to my questions.  I really appreciate his transparency and his willingness to have an open dialogue about these issues.  There is no doubt that they have a tough job, and overcrowding certainly is an issue at Red Rock.  Keep in mind, Red Rock is a National CONSERVATION Area.  John made it clear that they are committed to recreational access, but managing these lands and protecting them is their number one priority.  They know that climbers (while not constituting a large percentage of the overall visitors) are a very important user group and that they look to us for information and updates about what is happening back in the canyons because we are the ones back there!  

The bottom line is that they are listening and are willing to work with us (the climbing community) as best they can.  So instead of fretting about it online and spreading misinformation, reach out and voice your concerns.  As climbing and outdoor recreation/tourism continue to increase, it is more important than ever to ensure that we have good relations with land managing agencies and maintain open lines of communication.  It goes both ways.  

John has looked at this thread and had this to say about the 159 pullouts, specifically (posted with his permission):

• "On the signs in the parking lots outside the Scenic Drive, those are not posted by the BLM. We have had rangers remove them in the past, but they seem to keep popping up. Management is going to send out rangers to remove them again. The Scenic Drive hours only apply to the Scenic Drive, the Red Spring parking lot (not Kraft Mountain parking lot -- that stays open) and the Overlook parking lot on SR159 between the entrance and exit of the Scenic Drive."

He asked me to share his email address and encouraged folks to reach out if they have any more questions and concerns.  

jasselin@blm.gov

Peace and Love! 

Hey.

Thanks.

michael sershenwrote:

If BLM is not posting the signs, I wonder who is?

I really appreciate the factual information from the BLM representative!  Thanks for that.  Yes, it's odd that it was NOT the BLM? Looking forward to finding out the answer to this mystery.

This is great imo. RR has been getting loved to death. With covid, there are loads more people recreating outside and even moving into vans. I am getting pretty genuinely worried about what the Vegas area will be like this winter, but this gives me hope it won't be an absolute circus.

Screws locals bigtime. How in the hell do we know what time of day, 30 days from now, that we might want to go cragging? Those of us who like to go out after work were not considered at all. 

Yukon Corneliuswrote:

This is great imo. RR has been getting loved to death. With covid, there are loads more people recreating outside and even moving into vans. I am getting pretty genuinely worried about what the Vegas area will be like this winter, but this gives me hope it won't be an absolute circus.

It might reduce crowds slightly within the loop. However, while there's no way to know until it's implemented, I feel like the climbing areas outside the loop might get more crowded due to less people being able to access the loop. Not that Black Velvet didn't already get crowded previously...

Note that the BLM representative only claims that the signs are not posted by the BLM, not that the BLM doesn't know who is. Note also the inclination of cops to keep their heads down while other cops are doing their copping. No one wearing any badge of any sort is likely to be perturbed by the sight of an empty pull-out.

Artem Vasilyev wrote:

They can mess with the scenic loop all they want, the climbing there isn't as nice anyway. 

But the pullouts need to stay accessible without any red tape. Glad to see that BLM isn't the one posting the signs and that they can be ignored. 

They can mess with the scenic loop all they want?? Glad you're not concerned because you don't happen to like the climbing there, but this impacts many of us who do, in fact, like the climbing there. I can't imagine you would climb in Pine Creek Canyon and come out saying the climbing is not that nice. 

I sure am happy that the FoJT got formed in the 90 to fight the Josh Loop Road.

Loop roads suck balls. I feel sorry for you Vegas climbers - you have been ripped off big time by the BLM and other government agencies.

At one time RR was the coolest place to climb at in the West.

What’s the Access Fund doing?

Nothing I reckon 

Another point of clarification:  John confirmed that the gates will still open at 6am, so climbers looking for that early start for the longer routes in the canyons will be unaffected by the timed entry reservations.  Even if you're not doing a longer route, definitely seems worth it to get up early and get in there - I always do when I'm in Vegas!  

I agree that this does not bode well for locals looking to crag within the scenic loop.  I would be upset too.  I recommend reaching out and voicing your concerns. 

Also, below is a link to the changes for the late exit permit process.  

https://www.redrockcanyonlv.org/new-late-exit-overnight-permits-system-starting-in-2020/

Will Manesswrote:

John Asselin has looked at this thread and had this to say about the 159 pullouts, specifically (posted with his permission):

• "On the signs in the parking lots outside the Scenic Drive, those are not posted by the BLM. We have had rangers remove them in the past, but they seem to keep popping up. Management is going to send out rangers to remove them again. The Scenic Drive hours only apply to the Scenic Drive, the Red Spring parking lot (not Kraft Mountain parking lot -- that stays open) and the Overlook parking lot on SR159 between the entrance and exit of the Scenic Drive."

He asked me to share his email address and encouraged folks to reach out if they have any more questions and concerns.  

jasselin@blm.gov

Will, did John Asselin of the BLM give a timeline on the removal of those signs? I was just out there on Highway 159 and as of right now the signs are still there at First Creek and South Oak Creek. I sense a lack of urgency on this issue which is distressing because the BLM seem to have no problem springing new rules on us with little warning.

Regarding the new reservation system for the Loop Road, I honestly think we need to seek higher authority here. I understand out-of-towners don't really care, but closing Red Rock like this is a slap in the face to the locals. How dare the the BLM cordon off this landscape? This should not stand. There needs to be protest here. There was no comment period. I'm baffled that Save Red Rock and Friends of Red Rock and Southern Nevada Climbers Coalition have been apparently blindsided. Those groups never spoke a peep about this, so I guess the BLM thinks they can drop the hammer down but there needs to be some recourse. I'm calling my US Congresswoman tomorrow, most definitely. The Clark County Commissioners need to be approached and they need to try to intervene. It's not fair for the locals to have their backyard subject to these restrictions. Many people moved here because of the relatively unfettered access to Red Rock. We are really getting screwed here.

By all means, there needs to be full accountability here with this new system. Who developed the plan? What laws say they can do this? What are the relevant numbers involved - how many reservation slots per day? How many commercial vendors will be permitted to evade the reservation system? Where does the $2 reservation fee go? What studies were done to justify this? Why is the reservation system seven days a week when it only gets crowded on the weekends and holidays?

Edit to add: this IS an access issue and the Access Fund SHOULD get involved.