Intro into Winter Mountaineering

Hi! I'm hoping to make some winter ascents/ski descents that would require a decent amount of snow/ice travel. I'm an experienced trad climber and have summer alpine climbing experience including a few traverses. I also have some training in avalanche rescue/assessing snow stability and have a lot of experience skiing, but I have little to no experience on steep snow/ice. Any advice for someone just getting into it? Books, videos, guides, general advice? Or maybe even someone in the Jackson area willing to teach me a few things? Perhaps this belongs in the ice climbing forum but I thought I'd try here first. Thanks!

Carter Johnsonwrote:

Hi! I'm hoping to make some winter ascents/ski descents that would require a decent amount of snow/ice travel. I'm an experienced trad climber and have summer alpine climbing experience including a few traverses. I also have some training in avalanche rescue/assessing snow stability and have a lot of experience skiing, but I have little to no experience on steep snow/ice. Any advice for someone just getting into it? Books, videos, guides, general advice? Or maybe even someone in the Jackson area willing to teach me a few things? Perhaps this belongs in the ice climbing forum but I thought I'd try here first. Thanks!

Take a course

Taking a class is indeed a great way to get started. Your classmates will also make great climbing partners after the class. Really, the only other option is if you have competent friends who are willing to take you out on easier trips and work your way up.

Best option would be to have friends willing to take you. The second best option is to ask random people, on a local facebook alpine group for example.
Third option would be to join an alpine club but, at least in Europe, my experience is that in winter they mostly do ski touring and ice climbing and way less winter mountaineering

Join a club and you'll learn all you need, the Mazamas, Mountaineers, Colorado Mountain Club, etc

Ok I'm going to offer a dissenting opinion, because everyone here is saying the same thing and I disagree. Even if the advice from others is helpful, I think some contrast would help you make a more balanced evaluation of your position.

I think you're selling yourself short. From your profile, you have rock climbing figured out, at least to some degree. The thing that you don't learn from rock climbing is snow. But you ski, and say you have some avy skills with that. I have no idea what sort of ski/avy background you have, but it sounds like you already know more than you would learn at basic classes/books.

Climbing up the snow slopes you ski down is literally walking. Tech ice is way easier than learning to rock climb. Buy what you need, and go solo top rope for a few days and you'll have it. If it's not obvious, first learn the skill, then merge it with objective risk (ie top rope wi5 for a week, then free soloing ai2 in the mountains should feel fun). Watch vids of skilled climbers pushing their limits (not 'how to climb' vids), they will have good movement skills. 

In a class I think you are likely to just pay $500/day for sliding down a snow slope and learning to self arrest. (Self arresting seems to be like escaping the belay- very important in FOTH, but not really a thing irl.) I have had a few interactions with Mazamas groups, and I'd recommend staying far away from those types of groups, unless you want your climbing career to shrivel up and die. They don't teach you to be a climber (think for yourself, take responsibility for yourself), they teach you to be a perma-gumby. If I met a climber who said they were trained by them, that would be a red flag.

Most of this shit is really just walking uphill. Don't pay someone to teach you that. 

What sort of routes do you have in mind in the next year or two?

J Cwrote:

Ok I'm going to offer a dissenting opinion, because everyone here is saying the same thing and I disagree. Even if the advice from others is helpful, I think some contrast would help you make a more balanced evaluation of your position.

I think you're selling yourself short. From your profile, you have rock climbing figured out, at least to some degree. The thing that you don't learn from rock climbing is snow. But you ski, and say you have some avy skills with that. I have no idea what sort of ski/avy background you have, but it sounds like you already know more than you would learn at basic classes/books.

Climbing up the snow slopes you ski down is literally walking. Tech ice is way easier than learning to rock climb. Buy what you need, and go solo top rope for a few days and you'll have it. If it's not obvious, first learn the skill, then merge it with objective risk (ie top rope wi5 for a week, then free soloing ai2 in the mountains should feel fun). Watch vids of skilled climbers pushing their limits (not 'how to climb' vids), they will have good movement skills. 

In a class I think you are likely to just pay $500/day for sliding down a snow slope and learning to self arrest. (Self arresting seems to be like escaping the belay- very important in FOTH, but not really a thing irl.) I have had a few interactions with Mazamas groups, and I'd recommend staying far away from those types of groups, unless you want your climbing career to shrivel up and die. They don't teach you to be a climber (think for yourself, take responsibility for yourself), they teach you to be a perma-gumby. If I met a climber who said they were trained by them, that would be a red flag.

Most of this shit is really just walking uphill. Don't pay someone to teach you that. 

What sort of routes do you have in mind in the next year or two?

I agree with you, that is why joining a club/hiring a pro was the third and last option I mentionned.
When you already have some sort of experience its way more fun to go with friends or other mountaineers.
Also, the OP mentionned he already has experience summer mountaineering, the main differences between summer and winter mountaineering are:

The cold (duh!)
As a consequence everything is harder (climbing, moving, rope related tasks etc...)
Access/approach and coming back is harder (may involved ski touring for ex) also less day light it to be expected
If you do it, bivouacking requiere more equipement and planning
Usually the climb that are rock in summer become at least mix climb in winter and the climb that are mix in summer become pure ice, you have to be ready for it (in terms of skills and equipement)

Fabien Mwrote:

 at least in Europe, my experience is that in winter they mostly do ski touring and ice climbing and way less winter mountaineering

I think this is one of those differences between alpine climbing in Europe vs America. Here, the alpine clubs tend towards objectives that are basically hiking with crampons. (don't forget the gaiters and 70 L backpack! two pickets per person minimum!)

edit: here's another suggestion to the OP- move somewhere where lots of people do what you want to do

J Cwrote:

I think this is one of those differences between alpine climbing in Europe vs America. Here, the alpine clubs tend towards objectives that are basically hiking with crampons. (don't forget the gaiters and 70 L backpack! two pickets per person minimum!)

edit: here's another suggestion to the OP- move somewhere where lots of people do what you want to do

But, is hiking with crampons really mountaineering?...

Here is what I have in mind when people talk about winter mountaineering (video courtesy of my friend Jon) youtube.com/watch?v=4pWmJ4A…;

Yeah, good question, I agree.

If you end up at the top of something, it's mountaineering here. To be fair, the "big" mountains in the western US all have fairly gentle gradients, so there's almost always a descent route that isn't too steep or technical. The clubs never venture beyond climbing up these routes.

Personally, I'm actually learning to enjoy moving on less technical terrain (started getting into mountain running), but if the terrain is not technical, I want to make up for it by moving fast. 

One more thing for the OP:

Get your list of goal climbs together, and arrange them roughly chronologically in increasing difficulty. When you decide what the first one should be, ask yourself why you don't go do it tomorrow. If you don't come up with anything, go climb it. If you do have reasons not to go, write them down. I like to use categories, such as waiting for weather/conditions, inadequate gear (the easiest category to fix), inadequate knowledge (of the route, of the descent, of myself??) or personal inadequacy (physical strength, technique, mental strength).

Start working your way through the list, and when everything is sorted, you know you are ready. Then go do it without a second thought, because you are prepared.

Don Morris wrote:

Carter, It would help to know what region do you plan to begin your winter mountaineering? Don

I will be living in the Driggs area this Winter. I'm interested in some easy ascents in the Tetons

J Cwrote:

Ok I'm going to offer a dissenting opinion, because everyone here is saying the same thing and I disagree. Even if the advice from others is helpful, I think some contrast would help you make a more balanced evaluation of your position.

I think you're selling yourself short. From your profile, you have rock climbing figured out, at least to some degree. The thing that you don't learn from rock climbing is snow. But you ski, and say you have some avy skills with that. I have no idea what sort of ski/avy background you have, but it sounds like you already know more than you would learn at basic classes/books.

Climbing up the snow slopes you ski down is literally walking. Tech ice is way easier than learning to rock climb. Buy what you need, and go solo top rope for a few days and you'll have it. If it's not obvious, first learn the skill, then merge it with objective risk (ie top rope wi5 for a week, then free soloing ai2 in the mountains should feel fun). Watch vids of skilled climbers pushing their limits (not 'how to climb' vids), they will have good movement skills. 

In a class I think you are likely to just pay $500/day for sliding down a snow slope and learning to self arrest. (Self arresting seems to be like escaping the belay- very important in FOTH, but not really a thing irl.) I have had a few interactions with Mazamas groups, and I'd recommend staying far away from those types of groups, unless you want your climbing career to shrivel up and die. They don't teach you to be a climber (think for yourself, take responsibility for yourself), they teach you to be a perma-gumby. If I met a climber who said they were trained by them, that would be a red flag.

Most of this shit is really just walking uphill. Don't pay someone to teach you that. 

What sort of routes do you have in mind in the next year or two?

Thanks a ton for the response. I'm living in Driggs, Idaho and would like to make some easy ascents this winter in the Tetons. I am also interested in some climbs in the cascades but I'm just starting my research. It's all very new to me. I plan on top roping some ice nearby when it gets cold enough. Any suggestions on routes?

Did you see that episode of The Fifty where Cody climbed the Grand with Jimmy Chin and skied down?  That made me want to climb The Grand in winter.  Anyway, I've been looking into it and Exum guides will take you up one on one or as part of a group.  They seem to have a good reputation, but it will come down to the guide that you get.  I'm sure if you ask around in Driggs or Jackson you can get some recommendations.