Fixed anchors in the Wind River Range

Matt Z's commentary on the BC route is a really good comparison.  I haven't heard of a single person who laments that rap setup. Perhaps at the time it generated controversy, but over time it has worked out well.

How many deaths have occured from old tat? How many deaths have occured from bolted anchors?

Tat isn't the problem and bolts won't change anything except allowing "climbing" to keep sliding down the slippery slope.

Another reminder to email me if you are able to volunteer. I have a list of willing volunteers going, and a conversation started with the local climber’s group. Thanks!

When there's too many cars on the highway, I always advocate for more travel lanes because that solves the congestion problem. Especially on roads leading from Colorado to Wyoming.  Nothing better then a parking lot of green license plates at the Big Sandy. 

Bolt the lines, make it safe, and let's get those greenies home.     

This is a no brainer for rap stations. Bolted rap stations are far less visual impact than tat bombs. just say no to tat. 

Carolinawrote:

Bolt the lines, make it safe, and let's get those greenies home.     

How is that funny when a girl just died?

I'm not sure which side of the argument gets a boost from this, but I recall Donini telling about the time he almost killed himself by weighting a crisp sun-baked webbing anchor. 

Regarding anchors - I second the notion that dedicated rappel routes are categorically different from belay anchors in the 'slippery slope/convenience anchor' debate. Adding bolted anchors for the way up would definitely change the route for the worse, but claiming that a clean descent robs you of an alpine experience is just silly*.

We need to recognize that many of these popular routes in official Wilderness Areas should have high quality, low-profile rappel routes*. The NE Face of Pingora has ~120 MoPro ticks for the 2020 season so far, which is just a fraction of the actual traffic. Of course, many of the raps in the Cirque will remain treacherous -  it's the high traffic bottlenecks that should have better infrastructure*

(* IMHO)  

edit to add: Granted- my license plate is green. Therefore my opinion is less valid. Carry on.

Tradibanwrote:

How many deaths have occured from old tat? How many deaths have occured from bolted anchors?

Tat isn't the problem and bolts won't change anything except allowing "climbing" to keep sliding down the slippery slope.

When you take into account the combination of tat breaking, blocks/horns blowing out, and tat anchors pinning somebody down in a rockfall zone there have been quite a few deaths actually.  And a shit-ton of near misses.

The thing is, tat IS a problem.  Not only for accidents, but also what a mess it leaves.

slimwrote:

When you take into account the combination of tat breaking, blocks/horns blowing out, and tat anchors pinning somebody down in a rockfall zone there have been quite a few deaths actually.  And a shit-ton of near misses.

Pales in comparison to the amount of people botching a simple bolted rap. Next thing coming for the winds are trundling parties?

The thing is, tat IS a problem.  Not only for accidents, but also what a mess it leaves.

So clean it up on the way down. 

NO. Absolutely not. The Winds are a Wilderness area (with a capital "W") and self-reliance should be key here. So many climbers I see coming through the shop describe the Cirque as an alpine playground, when in fact it is a dangerous alpine area. Keep it that way. Gatekeeping may be a negative buzzword nowadays, but there should certainly be gatekeeping when it comes to climbing in the high mountains. Remember that when you start to bolt one route, that sets a precedent for anything else to be fair game. You should have the skills to get up and down a route under your own power, using your own gear, and the ability to mitigate objectiver and subjective hazard as much as possible. What happened is a tragedy for sure, but it's a reminder that we shouldn't treat remote climbing areas as "playgrounds". We should approach these places with respect to the indifference commanded by a place in which we have no control.

DavisMeschke Guillotinewrote:

NO. Absolutely not. The Winds are a Wilderness area (with a capital "W") and self-reliance should be key here. So many climbers I see coming through the shop describe the Cirque as an alpine playground, when in fact it is a dangerous alpine area. Keep it that way. Gatekeeping may be a negative buzzword nowadays, but there should certainly be gatekeeping when it comes to climbing in the high mountains. Remember that when you start to bolt one route, that sets a precedent for anything else to be fair game. You should have the skills to get up and down a route under your own power, using your own gear, and the ability to mitigate objectiver and subjective hazard as much as possible. What happened is a tragedy for sure, but it's a reminder that we shouldn't treat remote climbing areas as "playgrounds". We should approach these places with respect to the indifference commanded by a place in which we have no control.

Just so I understand, how exactly are tat anchors with rap rings "self-reliance"?

Also, nobody is bolting a route. The discussion is around one bolted rappel line off a highly trafficked, moderate peak. Why is it hard to understand that the proposal is not the same as grid bolting the entire area?

DavisMeschke Guillotinewrote:

NO.[...]

I can even agree that rarely repeated routes should stay 'wild'. Route-finding on the way down is indeed a skill. 

I'm arguing that there is a threshold of popularity beyond which it is preferable to lower/(~remove) the possibility of a tragic rap anchor failure. 

It's hard to say what that threshold is, but Pingora qualifies (in my mind) 

DavisMeschke Guillotinewrote:

NO. Absolutely not. The Winds are a Wilderness area (with a capital "W") and self-reliance should be key here. So many climbers I see coming through the shop describe the Cirque as an alpine playground, when in fact it is a dangerous alpine area. Keep it that way. Gatekeeping may be a negative buzzword nowadays, but there should certainly be gatekeeping when it comes to climbing in the high mountains. Remember that when you start to bolt one route, that sets a precedent for anything else to be fair game. You should have the skills to get up and down a route under your own power, using your own gear, and the ability to mitigate objectiver and subjective hazard as much as possible. What happened is a tragedy for sure, but it's a reminder that we shouldn't treat remote climbing areas as "playgrounds". We should approach these places with respect to the indifference commanded by a place in which we have no control.

You do realize that technically Yosemite is also a wilderness...?  To your credit though, there are no bolts there. As for gatekeeping, if I bring my own gear and that gear happens to include a bolt kit, would you be okay with me getting down with that gear? 

Retrobolting is one group of people deciding that their experience will usurp the experience of those who like the experience the way it is.

Calling for retrobolting to become "the standard" is proclaiming that an experience that other people value ... no longer has value, anywhere.

The title of this thread is "Fixed anchors in the Wind River Range", not "Fixed Anchors on the S Face of Pingora".  Taking it back to the accident that kicked this off, isn't the real issue moving the rappel route out of the apparent bowling alley?  Any discussion of how frequent rockfall is in this zone?  Any discussion of where this rappel route should be moved to?  The lack of discussion on these specific points strongly suggests that this is really about people's comfort with webbing versus bolts.

Having a bolted rap route is just going to make these routes all that much more popular.  Maybe what we really need is to leave this zone alone and to put bolted rap routes on formations other than Pingora and Wolf's Head?

I'm not opposed to bolted anchors or to bolted anchors for rap routes - I've placed my share of both. I am opposed to considering retrobolting "the standard". And if it's not the standard, then we have to have some idea of where to draw the line. Too much of what I read here simply dismisses the opposing point of view (credit to Gilmore for not starting there).

If one group simply runs over what another group values in their climbing experience ... well, that's what happened in Ten Sleep. At some point the land managers will be obligated to get involved. And if it's the Forest Service, that won't be a speedy process.

Todd Berlier wrote:

Just to be sure Neil Carolina Davis, you do know that the discussion is surrounding a rap-only stations, not bolted belays, correct?

I do understand this. Again, anytime you bolt, whether it's a rap station, a belay, or an entire route, it sets a precedent for an entire area.

I've hit my post limit, which never happens for me, so I'll see if I can edit with what I was going to reply to John Clark with..

I do realize Yosemite is Wilderness. It's also a National Park, which the Wind River Range is not. We're not talking about Yosemite though, so let's stick to the Winds. If you want to bring a bolt kit and Bolt a rap line on Pingora, go for it. I won't stop you. I was weighing in with my opinion on a place that I spend most of my time in, the Wind River Range. I'm hardly a local of Pinedale, having been here for six years, or Wyoming for that matter. But the Winds is a place I love, and I'd rather see it wild. "an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." Does a bolt fit that definition?

Cherokee Nunes wrote:

A lot of respondents seem to be saying, "yes, we should have bolted rap anchors." But by "we" they seem to mean "someone else" should place them.

Don't like tat? Clean it up your own damn selves. That's one of the primary reasons to always carry a knife. You should have brought some knotted 1-inch slings as leave-behinds anyway. Want some bolts? PLACE THEM. Take responsibilities for yourselves and stop expecting others to pave your path for you. its the mountains, not the gym. 

I thought the point of this discussion was to get some sort of a consensus if we may bolt some rap stations at the Winds. So far, it seems the majority opinion is there are many advantages/benefits to bolting some rap rings, and the arguments for continuing with the status quo of keeping the tats don't really stand up. I'm glad to hear this community discussion. Like Thomas said, we don't want to step on anyone's toes and if the local climbing association could weigh in on these arguments and give permission, we would happily put some up.

Doug Hemkenwrote:

  Taking it back to the accident that kicked this off, isn't the real issue moving the rappel route out of the apparent bowling alley?  Any discussion of how frequent rockfall is in this zone?  Any discussion of where this rappel route should be moved to?  The lack of discussion on these specific points strongly suggests that this is really about people's comfort with webbing versus bolts.

This is the heart of the matter as I read it. The complaints so far are about the lack of safety in slung webbing anchors, and yes, the anchor was severed in this unfortunate accident, but no matter the material that the anchor is comprised of would make this any safer of a place, especially if incidents such as this can occur after countless ascents. If the rappel route is in the wrong place and cleaner pulls can be found elsewhere, great! But sometimes, rock in the mountains is not as clean as we would all wish for, and we have to use discretion on when to rap short versus tying two ropes together and skipping stations in loose terrain with a greater than zero chance of the rope dislodging rock. 

If the victim had been struck directly by the rockfall, would the conversation still be about bolted anchors? 

TheBirdman Friedmanwrote:

Just so I understand, how exactly are tat anchors with rap rings "self-reliance"?

Also, nobody is bolting a route. The discussion is around one bolted rappel line off a highly trafficked, moderate peak. Why is hard to understand that the proposal is not the same as grid bolting the entire area?

It's hard to understand because anytime you place a bolt, whether it be for a rap station, a belay anchor, or a route, you set a precedent that's hard to come back off from.

I've hit my post limit, which never happens for me, so I'll see if I can edit with what I was going to reply to John Clark with..

I do realize Yosemite is Wilderness. It's also a National Park, which the Wind River Range is not. We're not talking about Yosemite though, so let's stick to the Winds. If you want to bring a bolt kit and Bolt a rap line on Pingora, go for it. I won't stop you. I was weighing in with my opinion on a place that I spend most of my time in, the Wind River Range. I'm hardly a local of Pinedale, having been here for only six years, or Wyoming for that matter. But the Winds is a place I love, and I'd rather see it wild. "an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain." Does a bolt fit that definition? 

You people that love rapping from bullshit anchors should take up canyoneering.

FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A BOLTED RAPPEL LINE. NO ONE WANTS TO RETROBOLT THE ROUTE. 

I’ve rapped off Pingora twice, and my experience was 0% richer or “more self-reliant” because I rapped from tat. In fact, prior to this discussion, I wouldn’t have even remembered if I rapped from tat or bolts because I went to the Winds for CLIMBING, not for the joy of rappelling. Make the descent clean! Bolt it!