Advice when getting pumped at the top of gym 5.11s

Hi,

I'm getting a little frustrated and am looking for some practical advice. 

I find myself flailing at the top of the toperope 5.11s at my local gym. My forearms just get pumped out. It's almost always on a sequence of crimpy holds and right near the top of the 55' walls. I'm only about a year into climbing and usually go about 4 times a week and outdoors as much as I can. Should I be resting more between routes? I usually spend about 1-1/2 -2 hours at the gym and climb 6 or 7 routes. I usually get a rest of about 10 minutes between routes as I'm belaying my wife. I am working on my technique (not overgripping, using feet more effectively, breathing, etc). I am old AF and fat (47, 6'1", 200#). I am very competitive as far as my own goals go, but after seeing the 18 year olds crush sport 5.12s, I am wondering if it's just too late for me. Should I accept mediocrity? I can do 5.10s all day with ease - it's just this particular circumstance that's killing me right now.

Thanks

Sounds like you're resting and working on technique, which is usually what beginners should work on. Maybe you could look into interval training or 4x4s if you're into training. If not, just have fun! Training can be a drag. As for technique make sure you shake out and have straight arms (it keeps weight on your skeleton rather than muscles). Good luck!

I would add some double laps on 10s once or twice a week. Endurance is best gained sub-limit. Also your progression for your age is perfectly reasonable and there’s no reason you can’t climb 12+ by the time you’re 50

You could try changing up your routine at the gym. Maybe do a few sets of up-down-up laps every time you go to the gym. Or get off the toprope and go do some bouldering for a few weeks instead? Also, you might benefit from taking a longer rest between routes. People who climb hard often take 30+ minute breaks between burns at the gym.

47 isn't very old, IMO.  

Here's a horrible answer that will make me sound like a crank.

200lbs is a lot to haul up a wall.  I'm 6'3 (and 42) and after I got down around 180 (from 230), climbing got a lot easier.  I would hate to, say, induce a midlife crisis via an eating disorder, but unless you're carrying a lot of muscle, you could probably, like, stop drinking beer/sodas and eating dairy and lose some pounds pretty quick.  

Personally, I just cut back on drinking (quit all together for a year or so), got super selective about what I will eat, and do long water fasts.  I lose about 2lbs a day when I am not eating, I'm about 40 hours into a fast right now, but I am not trying to lose weight, I just do it once every couple of weeks.  Fasting like that is (and this is an opinion, not a fact) a -really- bad idea if you're not willing to, say, give up eating pie for the next couple of years... you don't want to lose a lot of weight and then gain it back cause you don't change your general diet.  But I found after doing a lot of fasting when I return to eating I don't particularly like what sugar does to me... its effects are a lot more obvious now.  So I've been able to maintain this weight (which is at the middle of the BMI chart, FWIW) for the last couple of years.  

But losing that weight is pretty much the only reason I have been able to climb at an enjoyable level.

If that's a bad answer (and for you it may be), then it's also likely the case that you're not climbing as efficiently as you could.  Work on your body positioning and make a consious effort to make (literally) every single movement you're making look and feel as absolutely smooth as possible (think, like, tai chi).

Thanks for the advice. 200 pounds IS a lot to haul up a wall! I’m not a fat git, but I do have a goal of losing 15 more pounds. That’s 2 bowling balls dragging you down. (I already lost 15 pounds - just have to drink less.  it’s also a lot harder to lose weight as you get old.)

I must look a bit ridiculous to all the 130 pound kids. I am one of the biggest climbers there, other than the obvious first-timers. Like an elephant balancing on one leg or something...

Also going to take the advice on going up and down again and again to build endurance. My gym has 6 autobelays so it seems the way to go. I also find that sport climbing is really good for me.

All of the suggestions above are good, but I'll add that you might make some gains by improving your resting techniques. The following pushed my send grade up a whole number years back.

1) Challenge yourself to find and use every single rest. This isn't always the best approach to redpoints, but it was crucial training for me.

2) Note where the last rest is before the crux. If you're about to blow it, downclimb to the rest. This technique just might save your butt outdoors.

3) In a good rest stance, try alternating between shaking with your hands above your head and below your waist. Pump restricts blood flow, and elevating your arm for several seconds helps the oxygen-starved blood drain out.

4) If you're really pumped, stretch your forearms at a rest. This can be as simple as pushing your fingers backwards against your thigh or the wall.

5) Do everything you can to relax and breathe at rests. My best technique is to close my eyes, breathe deeply, and feel the rock. Smile. If I'm in a no-hands rest, I will literally spread my arms and hug the wall; this is way more fun on rock than plastic.

6) Practice stemming and back-stepping. Most of us aren't very good at these moves in our first few years, and most good rests involve one of these moves. 

I'll add that I get pumped a lot faster when I'm unnerved. Often, I just have to whip hard on a particular bolt so that I can trust it on the redpoints. Sometimes I just have to tell my belayer to shut up or find a belayer who uses both hands. 

Additionally, where and how you clip makes a huge difference. Many of us waste a ton of energy clipping every draw overhead. Often though, the best clipping stance puts your chest or even your knees on-line with the bolt. 

I realize that a lot of this applies more to leading than TR-ing, but that's by design. Very few people learn to climb efficiently on TR. I suggest you lead anything you can safely whip on.

For a guy your size and age, you're doing great! Be good to your tendons and you'll be putting the kiddies to shame in a few years.

John Reevewrote:

47 isn't very old, IMO.  

Here's a horrible answer that will make me sound like a crank.

200lbs is a lot to haul up a wall.  I'm 6'3 (and 42) and after I got down around 180 (from 230), climbing got a lot easier.  I would hate to, say, induce a midlife crisis via an eating disorder, but unless you're carrying a lot of muscle, you could probably, like, stop drinking beer/sodas and eating dairy and lose some pounds pretty quick.  

Personally, I just cut back on drinking (quit all together for a year or so), got super selective about what I will eat, and do long water fasts.  I lose about 2lbs a day when I am not eating, I'm about 40 hours into a fast right now, but I am not trying to lose weight, I just do it once every couple of weeks.  Fasting like that is (and this is an opinion, not a fact) a -really- bad idea if you're not willing to, say, give up eating pie for the next couple of years... you don't want to lose a lot of weight and then gain it back cause you don't change your general diet.  But I found after doing a lot of fasting when I return to eating I don't particularly like what sugar does to me... its effects are a lot more obvious now.  So I've been able to maintain this weight (which is at the middle of the BMI chart, FWIW) for the last couple of years.  

But losing that weight is pretty much the only reason I have been able to climb at an enjoyable level.

If that's a bad answer (and for you it may be), then it's also likely the case that you're not climbing as efficiently as you could.  Work on your body positioning and make a consious effort to make (literally) every single movement you're making look and feel as absolutely smooth as possible (think, like, tai chi).

Crank? Not at all. At my age, I can remember when I was 40 lbs lighter, much much stronger and could climb significantly harder things. It's a great answer. Add this: and give yourself sometime to get your tendons up to speed, 1 year isn't that long of a time as far as they are concerned. You can easily blow them out by being old, heavy and new. You don't want that - of all things -you don't. Trust me on that. Good luck!

Stop right now.

Research all the great resources for forearm and elbow mobility and follow those recommendations.

Save yourself from the slow, relentless, debilitating, painful repetitive stress injuries you are working on right now.

Google “how often should beginners climb.”  

It’s cool that you are so stoked but the consensus among trainers seems to be that 1.5 - 2h 4x week is quite a lot.  You also have some modest but not negligible overuse injury risk factors related to age and weight.   Replacing one Wall session a week with something more core and flexibility intensive like yoga may reduce your injury risk and improve your performance (it‘s no coincidence that so many climbing gyms offer yoga).

I am nobody’s expert but there is plenty of actual expertise available, probably at your local gym, so talk to a pro - it’ll keep a trainer at least semi-employed during COVID and help you make much more efficient (and safe) progress with the time you put in.

 Good luck!

Thanks for all the replies folks. I take the tendon injury issue seriously. (I work in Sports med and know how tough it is for soft tissue injuries to heal, especially when one is old). I do lots of forearm work before, in between, and after sessions. I also do yoga (my wife teaches yoga!) and at least 10 miles a day on a bike. Cannot run anymore due to bad knees. Admit that I tend to go to the gym too often as I am stoked. Working on that.

Mark Bwrote:

Admit that I tend to go to the gym too often as I am stoked. Working on that.

IMO, if you're just going and not cranking down on some stupid thin crimps (like, you're just yarding up easier stuff or working on balancy kinds of things), then you're not going to develop too many problems.

I started climbing about two years ago, and did what you're doing... I ended up with elbow tendonosis, but I'm also a semi-professional upright bass player and I chalk that problem up to muscle imbalances in my arm... and, even then, I think that it was worth the 6-week reduction in climbing (to almost none for most of it).  

My feeling is that (as a dude in his 40s), after 2-years of climbing an average of 2-times a week (I measure this stuff cause I am a geek), I am -almost- ready to start some sport-specific training like finger boarding and to start trying to do harder grades than the 510 sport and 5.9ish trad that I feel very comfortable doing.

So IMO climb as much as you can, just don't be afraid not to give up on things that could hurt you.

I pretty much agree with all if the recommendations.  Just keep climbing...  it took me like two years before I could even top a 5.11 at my gym! (My gym was pretty sandbagged but still...).

When biking, try to keep your heart rate at Zone 3 to burn more fat for energy to help with weightloss.  Zones 4 and 5 burns sugar for energy since its an anaerobic state. 

Edit: explore the heart rate zones...  there is a way to increase the lactic threshold (aka slows the pump). I dont remember tje specifics but it was covered in "Training for the New Alpinism" text.

Just IMO, but I don't personally lose weight when exercising... I mostly only lose weight by:

- lowering my caloric intake below my caloric output

- modifying my metabolism to run off fat, ie going into ketosis

Upping my caloric output in a meaningful way is almost impossible for me unless I am doing very long, difficult days. I would find it very difficult to lose weight exercising unless I take up running or swimming and that sounds time consuming (I'd rather spend my time climbing).

FWIW, I find a keto diet very useful for losing weight, and then if you fast after you've started ketosis, it's not anywhere near as hard as if you were, say, running your body mostly off carbs.  Like, once your body is used to burning fat to get the sugars that your brain needs, it's not a horrible shift for it to run off its own fat instead of the fats your are feeding it.

Just a caveat... if you don't change your diet pretty drastically what I am suggesting can be very harmful.  That is, if you lose weight but keep drinking a lot of beer and eating pie and icecream afterwards, your weight could fluctuate pretty rapidly.  I don't eat any dairy or drink sodas.  Rx/protein Bars are what I eat when I am climbing, and in general I have a lot of stuff I just can't eat any more without feeling funky.  But, IME, running your body solely off its own fat supply is not harmful... for me it's been very useful and feels quite nice.  So, all that said, the only way I have been able to lose weight is to just not eat for extended periods of time.  What is harmful is gaining that weight back because I haven't changed my diet.  So, like, beware of that.

Stop top roping.   Start leading.  Stop worrying about the grade.  Have fun.  

Some good points already mentioned, so I’ll go with something that hasn’t been mentioned.

You say you climb 6-7 routes in a given gym session. That’s not a whole lot. You might want to increase the volume of at least some of your gym sessions gradually.

Ideally, your first ~3-4 routes should be progressive warmups, and you should try to get the most out of them by climbing intentionally, and giving yourself a specific task for those routes. E.g. you say that you are working on your footwork and technique. What does it look like, in practice? You could, for example, make a goal of doing your 2nd warmup route as quiet as possible: no scraping feet, etc. Or make it one-touch: no adjusting hands on the hold, place your hand exactly how you think it should be placed, and then it stays glued as you make the next move, no shifting allowed. For a 3rd route, make a goal of flagging on every move. Even if it doesn’t need flagging. Even if flagging actually makes the move more awkward, just try to do the entire route as step-flag-reach, step-flag-reach. Pick routes that you had done before, so the focus is on movement drill, and not on trying to figure out what to do.

those are just examples. There are a lot of things you could put in there: force yourself to climb a route without matching hands, or skip some holds and go dynamic, if you usually climb static-y, or focus on initiating from the legs, and not arms, or focus on slowing down and making each move like a flowing slow-motion, or try hovering at the end of each move, before grabbing the next hold.

The possibilities are endless. But the point isn’t to do all of them at once. The point is to pick one, set an intention, and really focus on doing that one thing well. Then pick the next route, another specific thing you will focus on, and do that. And even more importantly, repeat that in every session. Ideally, those should be your specific weaknesses.

After you are done with your progressive warmups, the last route should be something that is just at the top of your flash ability, or maybe even something that took you couple tries. Then it’s time to get on that route you have been trying, and failing on. Give it 3 tries, with plenty of rest in between. Maybe in the beginning 2 tries is all you’ve got, and the 3rd time goes much worse than the 2nd. But as you increase the volume, you will be able to give it a good effort on your 3rd, or even 4th try.

Then, after you are done with trying that hard route that you are working on, step down in difficulty, and climb a few more routes. Now would be the time to onsight new routes that have just been put up, or try something harder that appeals to you, with no expectations of sending. Just to try the moves, and hang in between. 

Greg Dwrote:

Stop top roping.   Start leading.  Stop worrying about the grade.  Have fun.  

That's the advice I like! I try to lead at least 50% of the routes at the gym. Maybe I should get an Ohm.... (My wife does not like it when I fall and she's 60 pounds less than me.)

Also, trying to heed the advice above and get in more time on wall. I agree 6-7 routes per session is not a lot. I crank out at least 10+ when I'm running up and down the autobelays. They're just not as fun.

Anonymous wrote

I've been thinking I need to loose about 30lbs but, I've been struggling to start running every day so a diet might help kick start it.  My diet isn't horrible...

My $0.02

If you are working out at appropriate intensity (less than screaming intensity, more than a brisk walk) on average 5 times a week, getting enough sleep (7h nightly for most adults but +/- as much as 2h, listen to your body), and eating as you describe then you weigh what you are meant to weigh and fighting that in the name of serving the nutritional theory du jour is much more likely to make you unhealthy than anything else.  Most nutritional “science” is complete junk due to the inherent problems of establishing control and test groups where everything is basically the same except the dependent and independent variables of the study.  Only the most pronounced effects (Smoking, drinking heavily) are going to be statistically significant when applied to the population  

Eat real food, not too much, mostly plants.  Get your exercise and sleep right.  Then work on technique, not complying to nutritional dogma of dubious provenance.

William Kwrote:

Someone else’s $0.02
Eat real food, not too much, mostly plants.

Your 2 cents or modern market’s. 

Greg Dwrote:

Your 2 cents or modern market’s. 

Actually that quote comes from Harvard & UC Berkeley professor Michael Pollan, from his 2008 book The Eater’s Manifesto.  It’s an interesting read, particularly with regard to the history of how we came to regard food in terms of nutrients.

So are you suggesting that the commenter I was replying to actually does need to further restrict his diet, or did you just feel the need to take an unrelated and ill-informed shot at a stranger on the internet?

William Kwrote:

My $0.02

you weigh what you are meant to weigh and fighting that in the name of serving the nutritional theory du jour is much more likely to make you unhealthy than anything else.  [...] Then work on technique, not complying to nutritional dogma of dubious provenance.

I think that I am more or less in agreement with you.

How shoudl I make sense of the way that at one point I was following this advice and weights ~220lbs, and now I am more or less following that advice and weigh ~180?  How do I know how much I am "meant to weigh"?