Waterproof/Breathables When Alpine Rock Climbing

This thread has me thinking about proper hydration and nutrition as well. Thermoregulation is aided greatly regardless of conditions by appropriate hydration and nutrition, and mental function is much better with adequate glucose. Simply as an aside, I'd encourage anyone thinking about their foul weather plan to consider its interactions with their food and water planning as well.

A very interesting observation.  For many years, I just didn't eat all day, and my nutrition is still probably nowhere near appropriate.  But in my dotage, I've found that a relativey steady infusion of energy chews over the course of a day seems to keep me going better and reduces muscle cramps, which I've been plagued with since high school.

slimwrote: what i can't get over is the number of folks that i see alpine climbing in shorts, and i ask them if they brought pants and they laugh and say "nah".  that's a little cray cray if you ask me.

I'm a ginger so no matter what I wear long sleeves and legs in the mountains because I want to keep sunscreen usage to a minimum. But yeah, if you're doing shorts at least bring rain pants!

I had my own little epic about a month ago and I was very glad that we brought adequate rain protection, food and insulation - if not we would most certainly have lost control due to several factors. It was cold, wet and windy but we never became genuinely hypothermic thanks to the hard shells. I would never leave them in the valley!

Summer mountaineering I always carry a waterproof jacket even if I certainly use it 2 times over the whole summer, weather can change rapidly, you could be stuck for many reasons etc... just be ready for anything.
But because in summer you re probably not gonna use it that much I would take a very light one, I personally use one from Rab that doesn't exist anymore but its about the size of a tennis ball, For a current Rab model I checked and the Phantom Pull-on seems nice.
FWIW here is my current summer moutaineering set up:
Merinos T-shirt (short sleeves)
Lightweight fleece (patagonia R1 pullover for ex)
Lightweight softshell
Usually inside the backpack:
Lightweight down jacket such as mountain hardwear ghost whisperer
Lightweight waterproof jacket
For the bottom in summer I usually don't carry waterproof pants since if you get wet it usally means you re in lower altittude and you will not be too cold and dry quickly anyway.
I only wear a softshell pants with merino underwear.

A trash bag kept in your helmets suspension straps can be turned  into a rain vest or mini Bivy shelter. Beats tying your t shirt sleeves in knots and pulling your arms inside when be nighted.

I'd like to further emphasis my position, at 8oz and 85gsm of insulation this guy is going to be much more useful than a 6oz waterproof. 

that guy named sebwrote: https://enlightenedequipment.com/mens-torrid-apex-jacket-custom/?avad=189374_a1be0278d
I'd like to further emphasis my position, at 8oz and 85gsm of insulation this guy is going to be much more useful than a 6oz waterproof. 

Sometimes this is true. But i've spent enough time in only-15F-with-windchill to know that sometimes (a lot of time) all you need is a wind shell and to keep moving. Sometimes that's true with mist or snow too.

So like my original post, think long and hard about if you even need a do-it-all jacket, or are you better served reading the forecast and making a final decision at the trailhead?
My do-it-all jackets are my least-used jackets, because its rare that I'll be completely unable to customize my rig.

Petsfed 00wrote: So like my original post, think long and hard about if you even need a do-it-all jacket, or are you better served reading the forecast and making a final decision at the trailhead?
My do-it-all jackets are my least-used jackets, because its rare that I'll be completely unable to customize my rig.

I can't think of a single situation where I would rather have a 6oz waterproof over this 8oz synthetic jacket, maybe climbing on some sort of tropical multi pitch where it never goes sub 20°c in the day. Lightest waterproof I'll cary is the alpha fl and that's only coming out for extreme wind. 

Keeping moving is pretty much impossible if you're doing any technical rock, fine for scrambles and walking but good luck just keep moving when all you have above you is 5.10 slab and it's pissing it down. 

that guy named sebwrote:

I can't think of a single situation where I would rather have a 6oz waterproof over this 8oz synthetic jacket

Any time where you want your clothing under the jacket to stay dry.  Any time where you want to keep water out, but don't want or need additional insulation.

Kyle Tarrywrote:

Any time where you want your clothing under the jacket to stay dry.  Any time where you want to keep water out, but don't want or need additional insulation.

Exaclty. Once youve soaked all your layers you are FUCKED, that is how people become hypothermic.

that guy named sebwrote:

I can't think of a single situation where I would rather have a 6oz waterproof over this 8oz synthetic jacket, maybe climbing on some sort of tropical multi pitch where it never goes sub 20°c in the day. Lightest waterproof I'll cary is the alpha fl and that's only coming out for extreme wind. 

Keeping moving is pretty much impossible if you're doing any technical rock, fine for scrambles and walking but good luck just keep moving when all you have above you is 5.10 slab and it's pissing it down. 

Dunno, I got caught in a thunderstorm last week and my 6oz rain shell was pretty nice to have. Having a puffy would have been hilarious as it went from 75F and blazing sun to about 50F and nuking rain, hail, and thunder in about 5 minutes. 

Having a way to stay dry can also mean the difference between bailing and waiting out a passing storm.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, it’s just that in my experience, dealing in absolutes is an easy path to have a bad time, whether in climbing or in life. Mountain weather is variable, your mindset should reflect that.

Edit: I'd also add that while synthetic insulation still mostly works when it's wet, being wet just isn't that much fun. I'd rather be dry than damp. But that's like, just my opinion.

Seb is right, everyone else has read too much goretex marketing material.

Only place I preferred a goretex jacket climbing was Patagonia.

Fallacies in this thread
1) that a waterproof outer layer actually will keep you dry in a downpour
2) that insulation doesn't work when it's wet
3) how common it is to be rained on while climbing (it's happened to me like twice in 10years of climbing?) I'll define rain here as an amount of rain that changes your plans/makes you retreat, not a 5min shower. 

Matt Zwrote:

Dunno, I got caught in a thunderstorm last week and my 6oz rain shell was pretty nice to have. Having a puffy would have been hilarious as it went from 75F and blazing sun to about 50F and nuking rain, hail, and thunder in about 5 minutes. 

It rained for 5min and you think a rain shell was useful? It's 75f out, you would have dried out in 5 min anyway. Jesus....

MPwrote: Seb is right, everyone else has read too much goretex marketing material.

Only place I preferred a goretex jacket climbing was Patagonia.

I was more arguing that any good day-tripping alpine climber could conceivably own (let alone recommend) just one jacket for all possible scenarios.

I've definitely had days where I wore a wind shell and a t-shirt, because it was frigid without the shell, but I was sweating wearing any insulation whatsoever. I've also had soft-shells unable to stop the wind, so I had to wear a hard shell.

Rab has a 90g wp/b (3.2) coming out—im Trying to score one...for now a 6oz Flashpoint pullover goes w me...add insulation as needed..

good discussion gents!

The Rab shell is a « phantom pull-on, » 7d fabric...made for trail running but maybe worth it as a back up piece?!

At the end of the day, we're talking about marginally different responses to bad weather preparation in situations when one doesn't want to carry a more robust kit,  Each response has pros and cons, fitting certain conditions better and others worse. The advocates have given their reasons, everyone is free to make their own choices, and I don't see any benefit in making it a duel to the death.

MPwrote: Fallacies in this thread
1) that a waterproof outer layer actually will keep you dry in a downpour

Have you ever owned a decent waterproof? Because they absolutely do...

2) that insulation doesn't work when it's wet

It does, but not nearly as well as when it's dry. Nice enough when you are on the move and are able to dry it out, but if you're in a shiver bivy and all of you're layers are soaked, you're gonna have a bad time. However, getting caught in a shiver bivy without proper rain gear and insulation might reflect planning abilities...

3) how common it is to be rained on while climbing (it's happened to me like twice in 10years of climbing?) I'll define rain here as an amount of rain that changes your plans/makes you retreat, not a 5min shower.

Depends on where you are... I've experienced condition changes from reasonable to pissing rain in 10-15 minutes and a temperature drop from 15C to about 5C, with sleet and thunderstorms thrown in for good measure - and the hut was at least 1-2 hours away. I've also grossly underestimated weather conditions once. Proper rain gear was a life saver in such situations. 

Kevin Mcbridewrote:

Exaclty. Once youve soaked all your layers you are FUCKED, that is how people become hypothermic.

If this is the case you've got some serious issues with how you're dressing, dont wear cotton anywhere where there's a risk of getting wet (which includes from your own sweat). 

And regarding insulation working well when wet, for synthetics numbers vary depending on if its long(polargaurd) or short(primaloft) staple length, long staple length I've seen numbers as high as 96% of its original insulation and short I've seen as low as 80%, so even worst case scenarios with a synthetic jacket you're looking at it still working very very well.

Waterproof breathables don't work well in extended down pours and become plastic bags once the dwr is overwhelmed (if you bothered to maintain it at all), you won't get soaked but you will get damp.