Nick Wilder's Response to Recent Allegations

Ty Baxter wrote: "Nick Wilder wrote: I am drafting a policy that includes guidelines for defining what is discriminatory, and then describes how we will address discriminatory names. "
Who else is helping with this? It can not be done by one white man!

Hey Ty, try reading the next sentence: "I hope to include expertise from BIPOC people and groups."

I appreciate the effort ! That being said MTN project is a database and that’s my understanding of it. A collection of route names and info. Shouldn’t the FA parties bare the brunt of their racist history and not Nick? 

Rory Jones wrote: Lets not forget that this site also endangers local crags through over promotion and that all of the information added to it makes a white man even richer. I'm certain Nick has enough wealth that he does not need to work anymore.  Honestly we would be better off it the site was removed from the internet and the forums moved to reddit.  MP is really is a shit show.

And yet here you are.  LOL

R. Moranwrote: I appreciate the effort ! That being said MTN project is a database and that’s my understanding of it. A collection of route names and info. Shouldn’t the FA parties bare the brunt of their racist history and not Nick? 

This is a debate as old as the internet... should youtube get sued when someone uploads an episode of The Simpsons to their platform? Shouldn't the uploader be responsible? While you could argue either point, the reality is that if youtube leaves copyrighted content on their platform they are liable to get sued.

Any user-generated content has moderation because no one wants their site to become a cess-pool, so yes, to some extent Mproj has some say/responsibility/etc for what is on their site; how much is up for debate imo.

Ty Baxter wrote:
Thanks, Nick, I can read. I asked WHO you will be working with. Specifically what people and groups will you be working with? Do those people and groups represent all of the climbing community and not just the white male (of which I am a part of)? You can't just "hope" to work with BIPOC and groups, you need to show concrete actions. 

Don't you think he needs to figure out who is willing to help him/MP in the BIPOC community before saying who he is working with? 

You can't just say you are working with someone and expect them to cooperate, but you should know this because you said it. 

Ty Baxter wrote:
Thanks, Nick, I can read. I asked WHO you will be working with. Specifically what people and groups will you be working with? Do those people and groups represent all of the climbing community and not just the white male (of which I am a part of)? You can't just "hope" to work with BIPOC and groups, you need to show concrete actions. 

dude, put down the pitchfork for a sec and let the process unfold. If Nick said he is trying to work with different groups, give him and the groups time to hash this all out. "Concrete actions" don't happen overnight...

Would you prefer a rushed solution just to check a box or a well thought out policy that addresses the issues we are all discussing??

Ty Baxter wrote:
Thanks, Nick, I can read. I asked WHO you will be working with. Specifically what people and groups will you be working with? Do those people and groups represent all of the climbing community and not just the white male (of which I am a part of)? You can't just "hope" to work with BIPOC and groups, you need to show concrete actions. 

You joined today to give Nick a hard time?

You big strong SJW you

The toxic bullshit here is incredible.

I second wanting to know what concrete actions Nick is trying to take to involve BIPOC climbers in the process. 

Nick Wilderwrote: I have run Mountain Project (MP) for a long time—15 years now...But I have made many mistakes in the process...

Nick, IMO, your mistake (a pretty easy one to make) is that you've ignored the reasonable voices for change for so long that now you are forced to deal with the unreasonable ones. On the other hand, it is pretty easy for one to become unreasonable when reasonable suggestions/requests have been repeatedly ignored. It's upon you to proactively seek out those who are still willing to be reasonable and remain mostly silent to even some unjustified criticism (responding to them wouldn't be productive anyway); consider that as debt you must now pay.

I don't wish to be in your shoes, but good luck.

Nick - I understand the human urge to defend yourself and the difficulty in apologizing when one thinks they've been over-accused. And I'll take your word on the positive intent behind this post. That being said, after having read some of these comments, it seems like the result of your response has been to invite and oxygenate conflict over, and undermine (subtly or not), the point of Melissa's and the BIPOC community's work. As a leader on MP, if you're going to start conversations on this topic, it's also your responsibility for the content and quality of what follows, regardless of intent. And looking around, I don't think this thread has advanced the inclusion or the wellbeing of BIPOC climbers at all.

J Hwrote: Nick - I understand the human urge to defend yourself and the difficulty in apologizing when one thinks they've been over-accused. And I'll take your word on the positive intent behind this post. That being said, after having read some of these comments, it seems like the result of your response has been to invite and oxygenate conflict over, and undermine (subtly or not), the point of Melissa's and the BIPOC community's work. As a leader on MP, if you're going to start conversations on this topic, it's also your responsibility for the content and quality of what follows, regardless of intent. And looking around, I don't think this thread has advanced the inclusion or the wellbeing of BIPOC climbers at all.

Because no matter what, there will always be people like you who will never be satisfied. Nick's doing his best. If you don't like MP, go find your route information elsewhere. 

edit: Speaking of finding route info elsewhere, who's going to be reprinting all those guide books with new names? I've got 76 guide books from climbing areas around the world I've collected over the last 20 years, and man are there some route names in there I'd hate for MPers to see...

Scott Dewey wrote: How could someone stand behind such views?

Easy: I try not to be a fragile white male.

I don't see how anyone can defend that article, which reads like one giant logical fallacy.  This kind of crap detracts from the real work of addressing systemic inequality, and leaves the handful of rationalists left in this world wondering why they even bother.

Scott Dewey wrote: Thanks for working on fixing things, Nick. We all owe you one for your efforts toward such a large responsibility. I’m sure you’ll do the best you can with what you have.
However, I can’t keep my mouth shut... The Melanin Base Camp site has spewed a couple incredibly racist articles out to the world. Both of which are clearly targeting white males. It’s very sickening, and not okay. I will NEVER volunteer my time or donate money to such a hateful agenda/organization. Have a look at this gem of a link provided below. How could someone stand behind such views?

https://www.melaninbasecamp.com/around-the-bonfire/2019/12/8/stop-making-movies-about-white-guys-doing-cool-shit-the-sequel

There are some angry people out there

Peter Twrote:

The Oxford dictionary definition is "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized." Merriam Webster is changing their definition, recognizing that words have a different meanings now than they did decades ago (when the entry was last updated), and that the definition is factually incomplete without taking into account systemic discrimination. 

What are some examples of the "racism" that white people experience in the US? White people aren't systematically excluded from employment or housing because of the color of their skin or even the names on their applications. We don't get followed around stores and people don't cross the street when they see us coming because our race is associated with crime. When people of color use hateful speech against white people it does nothing to damage our position in society because white people have the power, but the reverse is not true.

Heavens- it takes a special kind of ignorance and stupidity to believe some of this nonsense. 

After looking through those articles, I (as a person who's used this site for about a year so i'm hardly credible, keep in mind) don't even think nick had an obligation to respond to the people over at Melanin basecamp. They are vehemently racist,bitter,and hateful, and entitled. I'm guessing most did not take time to read the article from them bashing Megos, so here are some quotes-

Rotpunkt is oppressive. United States of Joe’s is oppressive. Any film that is released for consumption that abides by the status quo and makes no attempt to be self-aware is oppressive 

there’s the often used line that the subject is “pushing the limits of human capability.” This is what white men say when they need an excuse to flex the utmost privilege. Human capability is a misnomer when, in fact, their capability hasn’t actually been challenged in any real way; when they have the means to condition themselves for the single-minded pursuit of an irrelevant task that adds no value to the world, that saves no one, that does nothing to address actual problems 

storylines to keep us all thinking about anything but the fact that white men literally do the worst shit to the world 

Sorry Alex Megos, because you do seem nice, but you don’t get your own film in 2019 where you get to climb and be the best while the rest of us over here are doing the work to dismantle the cis-hetero white male patriarchal nightmare 

If a (climbing magazine) reader happened to be curious about who is climbing the hardest grades they could flip through to page 16 and refer to a side column that would list Megos at the top. Great. Now we know. And you might still advertise your techwear and gear. The rest of the pages? Dedicated to rewriting colonial narratives. 

Remember when Alex Honnold equated his girlfriend to a lamp and negated her identity as a climber based on her grade in Free Solo? His films are a toxic, hyper-masculine, intergenerational circle jerk 

Aside from the racism and delusion, they are incredibly entitled. They legitimately believe climbing magazines have a duty to primarily publish anti-colonial content above climbing, and that we should center climbing as a whole solely around politics and societal issues. They deserve no attention for their hate, and they detract from actual progress towards a better, more inclusive climbing community with their extremism.

The writer's bio helps clear it up a bit though. Ironic that she(?) is so extreme towards such a obscure sport community yet comes from a country that is possibly the most oppressive in the world against women.

Anaheed Saatchi is a writer, queer feminist and Iranian thinker  

forgive the excessive posting, but i've got mono and can't train so I have WAY too much time for this virtue signaling

Tricam Apostle wrote:

So it’s just happenstance that the feature you put in place appears identical to the sample code that was pitched in your absence, and put in place weeks after return?

umkay.

I think you missed the part where he used the identical code that  HE WAS ALREADY USING for the last 10 years to add a feature (flagging) that's already widely used on forums. There was no new "sample code" or even a new idea pitched...

EMFR Iwrote:

I think you missed the part where he used the identical code that  HE WAS ALREADY USING for the last 10 years to add a feature (flagging) that's already widely used on forums. There was no new "sample code" or even a new idea pitched...

When people are grooving on their rage, they miss a lot. This might be of interest too. What Your Anger Might Be Hiding

Sorry Alex Megos, because you do seem nice, but you don’t get your own film in 2019

He did though

the megos bashing is pretty odd, and seems somewhat off the mark.  the honnold bashing, well, that's probably not that far off the mark.  i was embarassed for him how he treated his GF in FS.