You can now flag a discriminatory name

Rory Jones wrote: Pretty disingenuous response from Nick, especially since MB article was published. I'm guessing the topic is important to his quarterly earnings since REI dropped him.  Nick is becoming more like Zuckerberg and Dorsey everyday now that he owns a platform devoted to hate and oppression and lives part time in San Fransisco.  And let's not forget the negative impact that this platform has on climbing areas due to overcrowding that comes from areas being posted on this platform.  

Maybe it's time to shut this site down and rebuild super topo?  Would not be hard to rebuild something better and open source run by communities across the country.

LOL.

Just to be clear, I don't think Melissa Utomo is accusing MP of stealing her idea. At least I don't see any mention of that on her Instagram. That accusation seems to be coming solely from the melaninbasecamp.com article author.

https://www.melaninbasecamp.com/around-the-bonfire/2020/7/6/how-mountain-project-stole-from-a-woman-of-color

Zachary Kwrote: Just to be clear, I don't think Melissa Utomo is accusing MP of stealing her idea. At least I don't see any mention of that on her Instagram. That accusation seems to be coming solely from the melaninbasecamp.com article author.

Wait, this Instagram page? No agenda here? LOL. This is exactly as I described a few posts up.

Fehim Hasecicwrote:

I’m confused, if this is intellectual theft why doesn’t she take legal actions if none were taken already?

Probably because taking legal action is expensive, and she's giving MP/Nick an opportunity to own up to it prior to resorting to that.

I'm not trying to throw Nick under the bus, but I'm also not going to come to his defense just because he owns the site. I'd appreciate hearing his explanation, because yes, ideas are intellectual property and Melissa's story is compelling.

Matthew Tangemanwrote:

Probably because taking legal action is expensive, and she's giving MP/Nick an opportunity to own up to it prior to resorting to that.

I'm not trying to throw Nick under the bus, but I'm also not going to come to his defense just because he owns the site. I'd appreciate hearing his explanation, because yes, ideas are intellectual property and Melissa's story is compelling.

Ideas standing alone are not IP. I know the person has some other explanations, but the issues are more complex. An IP attorney can help them navigate the issue if it has any merit and is not just an effort to get attention or donations. A consultation doesn't cost anything. I'm not saying there isn't merit to the accusation, I'm just saying that we can't tell at this point and that there is a clear political agenda at play. 

YOLOLZ Bicarbonatewrote:

Ideas standing alone are not IP. I know the person has some other explanations, but the issues are more complex. An IP attorney can help them navigate the issue if it has any merit and is not just an effort to get attention or donations. A consultation doesn't cost anything. I'm not saying there isn't merit to the accusation, I'm just saying that we can't tell at this point.

Check here for an easy explanation on how IP law works.

Well I haven't read that textbook, but I have read a similar one. You're right ideas alone are not copyrighted, and it was my mistake to word it that way, but ideas + manifestation of those ideas are, i.e, photos, video, songs, apps, code, etc. And it looks like that's exactly what Melissa pitched to REI and Nick - a finished product they could implement.

Is "unpacking" an idea from critical theory? 

Jared Williswrote: Is "unpacking" an idea from critical theory? 

I actually like the original Frankfurt School guys. They had a lot to say about the world.

The actual critical theorists would have had contempt for our political conversation today. For that matter, they had contempt for the young 60s radicals who used their works to critique US culture. The original critical theorists (Adorno, Horkheimer, Marcuse and Habermas) were highly educated, highbrow Jewish men from Germany, and thought that Americans- especially Californians- had a contemptible trash culture. Which is true - especially in our universities, on the internet, and in California. I think it was Marcuse who showed up at a leftist symposium one time where he was supposed to provide a critique of Western Culture, but instead lectured the kids that they were so ignorant of culture that they had no right to critique it - because they didn't even know what it was.

"Unpacking" as used today is just woke, undergraduate psychobabble. Often used to mark the beginning of an unlicensed therapy session. It's unfair to associate the Critical Theorists with their (distant) followers.

Zachary Kwrote: Just to be clear, I don't think Melissa Utomo is accusing MP of stealing her idea. At least I don't see any mention of that on her Instagram. That accusation seems to be coming solely from the melaninbasecamp.com article author.

I think she is, but she seems more concerned with getting the full message and implementation of her idea across and making systematic changes than she is with looking for credit. That's what I gathered from the instagram post Bicarbonate posted.

YOLOLZ Bicarbonatewrote:

Wait, this Instagram page? No agenda here? LOL. This is exactly as I described a few posts up.

No, it's pretty different actually. The Instagram post does not accuse Mountain Project of stealing nor give any expectation of payment. It just states the facts. It's possible she does feel it was stolen, but until you hear it directly from her I would take this article with a grain of salt. 

Instagram:
"Second, I want to clarify that Mountain Project released a flagging feature (an odd, partial attempt of it at least) without my guidance/knowledge on the same day I decided to raise awareness on this proposal. A lot was happening all at once but I hope that clarifies where we are now. And your advocacy is making a difference in how this situation is unfolding."

Article:
"Days later, Mountain Project stole her idea and released their own version of her flagging feature without paying Melissa or giving her credit. Melissa took to her social media in protest of the blatant theft of her intellectual property. Let’s be clear. Mountain Project did not design that feature, they stole it from a woman of color. "

Matthew Tangemanwrote:

... because yes, ideas are intellectual property...

this is worth discussing.  so, when i was a kid i had an idea about cars that could drive themselves.  can i take elon musk to court?

marmot marmotwrote:

I think she is, but she seems more concerned with getting the full message and implementation of her idea across and making systematic changes than she is with looking for credit. That's what I gathered from the instagram post Bicarbonate posted.

If it was just about the message, she would be happy that MP initiated a flagging system.

Zachary Kwrote:

No, it's pretty different actually. The Instagram post does not accuse Mountain Project of stealing nor give any expectation of payment. It just states the facts. It's possible she does feel it was stolen, but until you hear it directly from her I would take this article with a grain of salt. 

Instagram:
"Second, I want to clarify that Mountain Project released a flagging feature (an odd, partial attempt of it at least) without my guidance/knowledge on the same day I decided to raise awareness on this proposal. A lot was happening all at once but I hope that clarifies where we are now. And your advocacy is making a difference in how this situation is unfolding."

Article:
"Days later, Mountain Project stole her idea and released their own version of her flagging feature without paying Melissa or giving her credit. Melissa took to her social media in protest of the blatant theft of her intellectual property. Let’s be clear. Mountain Project did not design that feature, they stole it from a woman of color. "

You're right, those are some huge discrepancies between the Instagram post and the MB article. Huh. I guess we'll see where it goes.

Well, anyway, back to workin' at home.

Zachary Kwrote: Just to be clear, I don't think Melissa Utomo is accusing MP of stealing her idea. At least I don't see any mention of that on her Instagram. That accusation seems to be coming solely from the melaninbasecamp.com article author.

Flagging content is not a original concept.  Nick has nothing to own up to.

Dave K wrote:

That article is a wonderful example of why melaninbasecamp is a toxic organization that is doing more harm than good for the communities they claim to serve. Dragging Nick through the mud for this is not productive. And they really need to get a clue about how intellectual property laws work.

They are blog posts. Calling them articles gives them too much credibility. 

I like MP but I really hope they never get traction in Europe. I don't see why/how a website would be entiteled to rewrite a good chunk of climbing history just because they suddenly feel they are on the wrong side of the new PC.

Aside from this main big issue it give ways to tons of practical questions:

What would we do with the guide books? We ask editors to print new ones right away? People should burn their topos?

Its gonna be easy to talk about routes: "You know I was climbing X which use to be named Y at this crag, you now, name Z but before it was named W, you know what I mean right?"

Where is the respect for FA and/or people who bolted the routes?

Who decided they were the new police of routes names? with which autority? which oversight? which criterias? Since moral change fast those days what will happened if new criterias emerge in the next 5/10 years ? We are gonna change names again?

Is that such a widespead issue that we have to make a fuse about it? I m sure you can find routes that are an insult to everyone (including white male) and I don't feel threaten in my identity by a climbing route name...

Is rewriting history gonna change realities? racists will still be racists and smart/normal people will still be smart/normal. Actions have to be taken on a much more fondamental level (education would probably be a start, but I m no expert)

Tons of others questions I don't have the energy to list here.

Anyway, I m just 36 y/o and I have to say I already feel old and tired of this shit sometimes.

I m sure the fact that I m (according to the new terminology) caucasian/male/cisgenred/straight will be brought against me.

Time to head to a wall to clear my head with some more positive thinking.

Edit: MP being owned by white dudes it could even be seen by some in the minority communities as patronizing and a new form of white domination ("I decide, without asking you, what is good for you")

Edit 2: Just read that the idea may have been stolen from a woman of color... real classy on MP part... this, to me, seems to be a much more significant/systemic issue that the route name themselves...

marmot marmotwrote: https://www.melaninbasecamp.com/around-the-bonfire/2020/7/6/how-mountain-project-stole-from-a-woman-of-color?fbclid=IwAR0RFgrfMCSRHVUaV2azhE0cAEcQcMS_dDow9xqDkH2-3n85WzyGfbNKrog

In theory, the addition of this feature is welcome and a long time coming, but it appears that Melissa Utomo had been marketing this idea to Mountain Project (or rather to REI, the owner of this site) for months to no avail. The article above, as well as Melissa's personal instagram account, argue that it's stolen intellectual property, or at least partially so, as the feature is a much more basic version than the one Melissa proposed.

REI's treatment of Melissa Utomo is pretty despicable throughout all of this.

MBC is racist trash. Any link from that site is about as credible as infowars.

The ultimate irony of this conversation is that in the 1980s and 1990s these offensive names were meant to offend uptight, square Right-wingers.

Now they offend uptight, square Left-wingers.

A lot of climbers trying to scapeboat by using timidly "offensive" route names, but will completely glance over legitimately offensive names because they're too fragile to accept reality.  Get a grip, sometimes shitty people create routes and name them something really shitty.  Since this feature is in infancy, obviously they will tune it so that it can detect whether a name legitimately can have a claim of offensiveness, or whether someone just pressed the button because they're annoying and immature.