New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #12

Lori Milaswrote: Paying close attention to rgold's thoughts on this--a climbing wall that I would get tired of in 3 years would be ok with me.  

Always seems like a good idea to build a wall at the time, but the three year program assumed you're pretty hard core about it.

I would think just having a good setup for workouts would be preferable and WAY less money and room. Rock rings, hangboard, weights, etc. Remember you're trying to get stronger or maintain fitness in a general sense, not necessarily from a climbing-specific point of view. You have a giant park full of rock climbs and all the time in the world for that sort of workout. We built a wall once...the project of building it was more fun than using it, as things turned out.  Jus' sayin'...

Lori? I'm guessing missing your climbing gym is a good part of pondering a home wall?

My suggestion?

You have climbers there you partner with, right? Okay with that being your "family" you are in close contact with, right? Willing to inhale in their presence? Breathe hard and sweat together?

Share that wall. Let someone else do some setting, with your abilities in mind. Learn. See if you can set something that surprises them. You, would then have someone to egg you on when you climb. After all, it was set for you, right? You, in turn, can help a hard climber climb harder, well, because they can't not climb something the noob set, whilst the noob is innocently smiling up at them, eh? With that sweet, "oh dear, are those jibs too small?" smile? And yes, you plot behind their back online with your little heart throb or anyone else who can help you set deviously. It isn't rocket science, and way more fun setting for others than yourself.

Yes, I'm evil. In a sorta good way. Well. Depends who you ask.  ;-)

Best, Helen

Helen, I’m letting this conversation play out here, and I will marinate on it.  The right solutions will become clear... for each of us.

I have some beautiful partners, Brandt now one of them.  I am just truly surprised at how much I miss the strength and fitness from a gym.  Greg has a point, Russ has a point... Brandt has a point, I understand Todd has a home wall.  

So Greg what would you put in your garage to create a workout area specific to climbing, if not a wall?  

 There is a great regular gym in Yucca that has every piece of equipment one could ever want. I’m already a member.  

So I don’t know what the problem is.  Maybe having a serious partner or coach who is ready to roll at appointed times.  Tony thought we should have kidnapped Ryan and kept him here.

Here’s what I was looking at this morning. I’ve had my eye on that traverse for two years.  I believe someone is going to figure out a way to get a toprope on this one so can just TOUCH it.  That’s worth a year of hard workouts.

On what formation is this traverse found? Might be an easy way up.

Hey Lori - You sure picked an off-the-wall piece of rock to climb. I think you could come up with something else that would be more enjoyable for you.

Brandt Allenwrote: Hey Lori - You sure picked an off-the-wall piece of rock to climb. I think you could come up with something else that would be more enjoyable for you.

The heart wants what the heart wants, Brandt. And some year far in the future I may just get to see that route up close and personal.  

Hi Lori, as Russ mentioned, that route is called Ignorant Photons From Uranus (5.11c/d). It begins with Half Track (5.10 b/c), then traverses right and up (crux, 5.11c/d) to join Left Ski Track above it's crux. The crux of the route is a mantle maneuver (5.11+).

Lori Milaswrote:

Rgold, Can you recommend a hangboard? 

I think most hangboards, including mine, have way too many holds, many of which are invitations to injury for older people with tendons no longer made of steel cable.  Get one of the wooden ones (easier on the skin) consisting of three edges, big, medium and small.  That's all you (and quite possibly anyone) needs for effective training.  It is, however, critical to have a good counterweight set-up, as you will almost certainly not want to begin with body-weight hangs.  

Read up and maybe get someone knowledgeable to help you with your shoulder position so you don't hurt your shoulders.  

Rather than trying to stare at a stopwatch or stopwatch app, get a cheap digital metronome or metronome app and set it to beep every second to time hangs and rests between reps.  

Be very careful about recommended workouts; they're mostly made up by people who have been training for years and the workouts aren't for old-ish beginners, even if they're promoted as beginner workouts.  Plan to start off with fewer sets and fewer reps per set and adjust the counterweight so you are on for maybe 10 sec and off for 5 sec for your rep scheme.  

It is neither wise nor necessary to train until momentary muscular failure.  If your fingers start to open up, either you're done or you add more counterweight. 

Give yourself plenty  of rest days too; I'd say don't hang more than twice a week, at least to start with.

Agree with Rich on the hangboard. I started this spring and have seen a nice benefit from it, and can also see how easy it would be to get injured. The coach at my gym helped me create my program - definitely need at least 2 full days off in between sessions. I made the mistake a few weeks ago of not taking enough days off in between and was also ramping up my climbing again. My fingers were hurting, creaky and stiff - heading into injury territory - also felt weaker all of a sudden.

I do repeaters - 10 sec on/ 5 sec off. Each workout I do 3 hand positions with 3 sets in each position (7 reps, 6 reps, 5 reps). 3 minutes rest after each set. I increase the load with each set. The only position I do full body weight (and add a little weight) is on a jug. The other hand positions I do are 1/2 crimp (3 fingers) and open hand (4 fingers), both are on the largest edges on our board (20 mm maybe?). A counterweight is critical - kettlebells work well since they have a handle you can loop cord through. I am taking anywhere from 20-40# off my body weight (my first 6 weeks this was 25-45#). I weigh 140.  

Start very slowly if you decide to do this and be patient. Stay with the same program for a minimum of 6 weeks before increasing load. I have heard people say finger strength isn’t the limiting factor for most people until they get into the 5.12 range. For me it’s really increased my confidence knowing that I can make bad holds good and I know it has helped me - I would say I’m a pretty consistent 5.10 climber for leading. TR up to 12a.

I have a Metolius wood board that I use during climbing season, and a Rock Prodigy "Training Center" that I use in the winter when I'm skiing, not climbing.  There are training schedules that come with them. The Metolius is much easier on the fingers than the somewhat rough surface on the Prodigy.  My suggestion is to start with the Metolius board and beginner training schedule, work up to harder levels.  I found that it was much easier to use a stool to unweight than a counter weight system.  Start with two days between sessions.  

I can't imagine ever using a home wall. Especially if I lived 1 mile from the main entrance to J-tree. I don't have the discipline to train on a bouldering wall, even in the gym. I just get bored. IMO there are better forms of cross training. Yoga is great. Basic strength circuit training is great (like a P90X3 style workout.) There are tons of great short workout videos on youtube now. My wife as been doing 15 minute videos all through quarantine and it's really made a difference. Hangboarding and other hand/finger strength exercises can pay off a lot for climbing at higher grades. But, as others noted, be REALLY careful not to overdo it and get an injury. Hand injuries suck.

If I had a big garage in J-tree with AC (and don't build a gym without AC), I'd set it up with good free weights, a jump mat, pullup bar, rock rings, fingerboard, etc. No climbing wall. And a nice video screen for your new Youtube trainer friends.

Andrew Ricewrote: I can't imagine ever using a home wall. Especially if I lived 1 mile from the main entrance to J-tree. 

This.

FrankPSwrote:

This.

Todd Gordon has a great climbing cave in his garage that's even closer to the entrance than Lori's place. But I think it primarily gets used for late-night highjinks involving partying... Correct me if I'm wrong, Todd.

Andrew Ricewrote: I can't imagine ever using a home wall. Especially if I lived 1 mile from the main entrance to J-tree. I don't have the discipline to train on a bouldering wall, even in the gym. I just get bored. IMO there are better forms of cross training. Yoga is great. Basic strength circuit training is great (like a P90X3 style workout.) There are tons of great short workout videos on youtube now. My wife as been doing 15 minute videos all through quarantine and it's really made a difference. Hangboarding and other hand/finger strength exercises can pay off a lot for climbing at higher grades. But, as others noted, be REALLY careful not to overdo it and get an injury. Hand injuries suck.

If I had a big garage in J-tree with AC (and don't build a gym without AC), I'd set it up with good free weights, a jump mat, pullup bar, rock rings, fingerboard, etc. No climbing wall. And a nice video screen for your new Youtube trainer friends.

It seems like there’s a whole lot of WALL SHAMING going on here.    

Ok. I’m starting to lean towards this idea.  My garage is shitty.  I do wish someone would just choose the right equipment and deliver it.  And set it up.  And sweep the rodents, probable snakes and scorpions out the door.  

I want to thank Bob Gaines for his delicacy and caring in NOT saying that never, in this life or the next, will I ever find myself on the Photon route.   Some dreams are not meant to be shattered.

Lori,

Rather than a home wall, learn how to toprope solo. If there is any climbing near you. :)

Lori Milaswrote:

It seems like there’s a whole lot of WALL SHAMING going on here.    

It's not actually shaming. I just know my own limitations. I know people who climb REALLY hard who have home system walls and use the shit out of them. I'm NOT that person. If sport climbing 5.13 or even consistently 5.12 were important to me I'd probably do that, too. But it's not my thing.

I actually agree with Frank that you could have a hell of a time if you learned how to safely top rope solo and just went out all the time to places that are within 30 mins of your house. 

Lori Milaswrote: So Greg what would you put in your garage to create a workout area specific to climbing, if not a wall?  

I said this in my post...  Rock rings, hangboard, weights, etc.

Maybe a pullup bar (try some reverse pullups too). Basically anything that increases your overall fitness and strength. You'd be surprised how much it helps when all those recruitment muscle groups are stronger and more able to contribute to hard pulling, chimneying, anything core-style climbing, or offwidth, or pretty much all climbing movement. It ain't all about contact strength. And, as I pointed out, you have a giant park where you can work the climbing-specific stuff like building up thicker pads, crimping, slab-paddling, jamming, footwork (strong and well-used feet are invaluable!), etc.

YMMV - but my personal view on home climbing walls is that they're never as good as they seemed in your head, they tend to be small, which translates to quick boredom, they can contribute to finger injury if you're not careful. The best workouts I ever got on ours was to climb up the 8 or 10 feet to the head board of the wall, do a set of pullups or hangs on the hangboard I had mounted there, then climb back down. But I probably would have gotten basically the same workout with just having a hangboard hung somewhere.

Russ Walling wrote: I guess you could also break it down this way... if you are happy futzing around on easy routes (all relative of course) and climbing is just a fun and social event for you, carry on and don't set lofty goals or chase numbers. But, if you actually want to get better and stronger, you are not going to make that happen going into JT and doing the Gunsmoke in 9 pitches twice a week. It is very realistic that guys can go from 5.10 to 5.12 through training, as in specific training for climbing on specific apparatus. This grade leap can happen quickly too, but it is highly unlikely it can happen without some dedicated and real training. Scrambling and easy top ropes are not going to get it done. Plus, take a look at the hourglass... the sand is going and it's not like any of us have a lot of time left to tick the stuff you really want to get on. If your goals demand it, start training right away.

Honest question for you, Russ, because I have a lot of respect for your ability AND your experience at this. Do you think specific training like a system board workout is likely to address the primary weaknesses of a 60-something climber who is aiming to move from 5.6 to 5.7? My own hunch is that at that level of progression just basic core strength, flexibility and endurance are the primary limitation. Plus, on the rock, basic skills like proper hand and finger jams, pacing, precise footwork, flagging, etc.

Talking of hang boards and things I like my setup. The rock rings can hang almost anywhere, off trees etc.

Man, this is a lot of information to wade through.  And something about 'know thyself'.  I appreciate so much your input on the best practices for a (still) relatively new climber.  I do not mean to draw the conversation continually to my needs as a learner... there are so many accomplished and truly great climbers here.  You have your own stuff to talk about way over my head.  

I feel Russ' statement acutely: the hour glass is emptying.  This is the time and place to do whatever it is we aspire to.  

It is a mind-boggling lot of things to learn here.  Tomorrow I'll be on Atlantis, building anchors, cleaning anchors, and rappelling... and climbing.  It seemed like a good place to practice where there is also a safe walkoff.  Not to mention, learning the sun, the terrain, the types of rock, angles, hydration... it's been a gas to actually know when the sun will beat down on a certain route, what time, and move to the next shade.  

But I feel like Russ does that it's not enough to play casual in the park.  Maybe those comments were intended for the guy who does want to jump from a 5.10 to a 5.12 -- but I'm going to say that so MUCH depends upon strength (I'm thinking Silent Scream here), on top of technique, even at my stage.  

My experience so far has been that I workout and train like crazy at the climbing gym... and then come here for some weeks of vacation and climbing outdoors.  I always joked that I came to Joshua Tree for a rest.  I have always arrived strong (for me)--and usually gone back to Sacramento happy, energized, and ready to get back to work.  The fitness and endurance all happened at the gym... limited as they were.   

So, I will need to add something here, even living right next to the Park.  I appreciate everyone's thoughts on a climbing wall... I can see where likely it would get boring in no time and/or create injury.  All the other things suggested, the items Greg mentioned (and others), are a better idea.  And, hitting the regular gym here and there.  Tony and I were just talking about doing something with the garage to make it workable... paneling... something.

This is just the journey of a newb. (relatively)  You macho dudes and dudettes  have way different needs and routines.  Or as Iggy said... :-)   "So let's take a ride and see what's mine"
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One thing that has stuck with me... Chris (Baumann) said it first... you have agreed, is the best way to build 'skill' is just aim for volume.  Just days and weeks on rock, every kind of route, hold, challenge.  So, that's been my goal so far. 

I'll be up in Truckee next week and climbing 2-3 days with Chris.  Its just different rock/climbing and that has to be good.