New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #12

Brandt Allenwrote: Wendy - I wanted to read the Washington Post article but the link wouldn't work for me. Any ideas?

Brandt, have you gone to the WaPo to look for it? I think they're making pandemic articles available to everyone. Anyway, I'll try again. read//https_www.washingtonpost.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fhealth%2Fhow-fauci-5-other-health-specialists-deal-with-covid-19-risks-in-their-everyday-lives%2F2020%2F07%2F02%2Fd4665ed6-b6fb-11ea-a510-55bf26485c93_story.html

I was pleased to see that we're pretty much doing what they are, including taking some measured risks. But I sure miss going to the gym. 

Carl Schneiderwrote:

No, I haven't. Sounds extremely boring.. 

Probably wouldn't be after finding one of those big nuggets Australia is known for.   :-)

Carl Schneiderwrote:

The 4th of July is wedding anniversary for me. 33 yearsd

Carl

Nice photo!

Jean and I just had our 43rd anniversary last month, June 25, 1977.  Also, she has not dropped me yet when I have fallen.

I am trying to lose some more weight and get back into shape.  I would like to get down to your weight. I also like to eat and have a beer. Jean and I also try to run laps to get our endurance back.

John

I thought the above article was well done.
One of the things that has continually disappointed me the most about the "official" response to all this is how much misinformation is being spread, even by the "experts", and the continually changing and mixed messages.  The constantly changing messages are used as justification by people to buttress their false beliefs that "this" is all a scam, and that we should all just go about our business, get coronavirus to "get it over with" because "its no worse than a flu" and "only old people have to be worried".  

Contagion from surfaces is not typically a major vector, but here is something I put on my Facebook page a few months ago for people:

After watching people who are wearing gloves handle things in the grocery store and the pharmacies, I have concluded that the majority of people have no idea how contamination moves from one item to another.  Please realize that if you have on a pair of gloves, and touch any surface or item that is contaminated, and then touch your purse, credit cards, phone, car door handle etc, with that glove, you have now spread whatever you touched that had a contamination.  I see people driving their cars wearing gloves!  What were they touching with those gloves before they got back in the car?  Working in a science lab, you have to be aware of spreading radiation, toxic chemicals, bacteria, yeast etc, so in those environments handling things in a “clean” way becomes second nature.
 
Here is the protocol I use:  when I go out, I designate one hand the clean hand and one hand the dirty hand.  (You can put a dispo glove on the clean hand to keep it clean from aerosols if that concerns you. I don’t use a glove.)  I use my right hand as the dirty hand in case I need to sign things, etc.  I only handle outside items – carts, grocery shelf items, bags that clerks hand to me, etc. - with the dirty hand and clean items like my keys, phone, purse etc., with the clean hand.  Personally, I leave my purse in the trunk and only take a credit card in a pocket into the store.   As soon as I get back to the car I use the clean hand (with glove now removed if you have worn one) to open the car door and use the hand sanitizer to sanitize the dirty hand.  People who have tried this have reported to me they didn’t realize how many times they were touching things they wanted to keep clean, with their instantly dirty gloves that they had on both hands.
 
Even this protocol isn’t 100% a “sterile” technique, but it’s probably an improvement over what a lot of people are doing now.

Russ Walling wrote: Good looking set up Brandt!

Another thing to remember re having a home wall... it is really really hard to get strong by going climbing.  Get strong in the gym and then take that to the rocks.  I can get way stronger way faster In a controlled training environment than trashing myself out on the rocks.  Sure, some stuff like endurance and rock smarts might be better served by doing long routes or tr laps, but here in JT we don’t really have that option.

This is really on my mind right now. So glad it’s being mentioned here. 

I’ve lost strength and fitness... just no way around that. I don’t know what to blame it on.  Since COVID there’s so much less organized routine workouts.  No excuses I’m just trying to figure it out—something has to change.

I was at the park this morning wondering if I could create a “circuit”.  Scrambled up The Bong. Scooted down other side on my butt.  Saw a gray Fox!  But even two hours playing on rocks is not the same. 

I gazed at Sexy Grandma on my way out of the park and realized there is no way I could muscle up that now.  So... really, time for some changes.  

I don’t know if my garage could handle it but I’m looking at a climbing wall.  I’m asking around to see if someone local might be able to build one for me.

Getting/staying fit is my new job.  It replaces the desk job where I earned money. It can’t be anything less, I guess.  How the HECK is everyone else managing? I wish we could do the daily roll call “Did you workout today? Did you get your heart rate up?” 

Married 37 years.

Booked Castle Rocks Smoky Mountain campsite #29 Sep 14-19.  Still not 100% sure we will make it there.  We will have to leave a volunteer job a week early, we will see how it goes.

6 feet, wear a mask. So biking or hiking outdoors I don't wear a mask. Walking downtown I wear a mask. Shopping or restaurants I wear a mask. If I walk into a building that isn't mine I put a mask on. Hand sanitizer in the truck. Wash your hands when you walk in the house.  We are fortunate in that our lifestyle isn't very interactive with the general population and the majority of that is outside where we can easily maintain distance.  I do miss shaking hands however, a custom that has been with me a very long time. 

Thoughts on elder training.  

I think that the majority of people I know who have built home climbing walls stop using them within a three-year period.  I'm not sure why, but a level of boredom that can be relieved only by buying new holds, an expensive proposition, might be one of the factors.  I'd also note that a significant minority of the users I know ended up injured in the first month of use, presumably from an excess of enthusiasm for the new training tool.  Also, they build their wall too overhanging for the holds they've purchased and end up, initially, with strain levels that are too high.

Although it increases the complexity and cost, I'd urge you to build a climbing wall whose angle can be adjusted.  This will avoid the problem of being too overhanging at first and will make progressive loading possible in a way that cannot be achieved with a fixed-angle wall.

I think you can train hand strength and endurancel as or more effectively and more safely on a hangboard, assuming you have set up a counterweight system and also do some exercises foot-on,  but of course you don't get any of the body-position and body-tension training a home wall gives, nor to you get familiar and comfortable with being on overhanging rock, and you have to learn to protect your shoulders.

At 76, I cycle through various strength, endurance, and aerobic exercises.  The way it works out, I probably do only to one specific type of exercise per week.  I could make more progress with more frequency, but at an increased risk of injury and the depressingly long recovery times that age imposes.  On balance, for me, less is more.

Wendy - still couldn't make the link work. I googled WaPo Dr. Fauci articles and got quite a list, but when I click on one it wants me to subscribe before it lets me read it.

My previous comment was aimed more specifically at the decision of whether to go to CoR in September, not a method for staying safe away from home. I, and many people I know, follow a strategy very similar to Phyl's. But the fact is that in the last few weeks things have taken a turn for the worse. If that continues I'll be headed back to shutdown mode until the situation improves, both for my own safety and to do my part in helping the big picture. I'd like to think that there is enough time before the Cor event that conditions can turn around will be good enough to go.

I keep wondering if JTNP will close again. This holiday weekend I've been watching a steady stream of traffic in and out of the Park from my back porch. I haven't been out for a week or so due to lack of partners, but hopefully that will change before long. I'd hate for the Park Service to shut the door just when my slab technique is starting to show some slight improvement!

Edit: Dallas thank you, it worked!

rgoldwrote: Thoughts on elder training.  

I think that the majority of people I know who have built home climbing walls stop using them within a three-year period.  I'm not sure why, but a level of boredom that can be relieved only by buying new holds, an expensive proposition, might be one of the factors.  I'd also note that a significant minority of the users I know ended up injured in the first month of use, presumably from an excess of enthusiasm for the new training tool.  Also, they build their wall too overhanging for the holds they've purchased and end up, initially, with strain levels that are too high.

Although it increases the complexity and cost, I'd urge you to build a climbing wall whose angle can be adjusted.  This will avoid the problem of being too overhanging at first and will make progressive loading possible in a way that cannot be achieved with a fixed-angle wall.

I think you can train hand strength and endurancel as or more effectively and more safely on a hangboard, assuming you have set up a counterweight system and also do some exercises foot-on,  but of course you don't get any of the body-position and body-tension training a home wall gives, nor to you get familiar and comfortable with being on overhanging rock, and you have to learn to protect your shoulders.

At 76, I cycle through various strength, endurance, and aerobic exercises.  The way it works out, I probably do only to one specific type of exercise per week.  I could make more progress with more frequency, but at an increased risk of injury and the depressingly long recovery times that age imposes.  On balance, for me, less is more.

Rich, I have been meaning to ask what kind of reps and sets you use?

I have a COVID training setup in my basement, but it hasn't allowed a full workout.
When I finally go back to the gym I'll incorporate some leg work and some pressing exercises.
A good time to reconsider my program.

I strongly prefer high weight, low reps, but wonder how sustainable that is long term.

I think the ideal home wall would be a Moon board or a Tension board on an adjustable wall like this

Brandt Allenwrote: I keep wondering if JTNP will close again. This holiday weekend I've been watching a steady stream of traffic in and out of the Park from my back porch.

I saw you over there... I waved, but you didn't see me.  (mighta made that up)    

For July, there's a TON more people in JTNP than a normal year. I guess the Corona has everyone's psyche thrown off, or they're so desperate they just gotta get out. Super long lines at the entrance in July? WTF!?!?!

Greg - Oh so that was you? I thought it just some weirdo.

Brandt Allenwrote: Wendy - still couldn't make the link work. I googled WaPo Dr. Fauci articles and got quite a list, but when I click on one it wants me to subscribe before it lets me read it.

My previous comment was aimed more specifically at the decision of whether to go to CoR in September, not a method for staying safe away from home. I, and many people I know, follow a strategy very similar to Phyl's. But the fact is that in the last few weeks things have taken a turn for the worse. If that continues I'll be headed back to shutdown mode until the situation improves, both for my own safety and to do my part in helping the big picture. I'd like to think that there is enough time before the Cor event that conditions can turn around will be good enough to go.

I keep wondering if JTNP will close again. This holiday weekend I've been watching a steady stream of traffic in and out of the Park from my back porch. I haven't been out for a week or so due to lack of partners, but hopefully that will change before long. I'd hate for the Park Service to shut the door just when my slab technique is starting to show some slight improvement!

Edit: Dallas thank you, it worked!

Brandt, I hope not, too.  And I'd like to be your partner when you're not out with decent climbers.  

I haven't mentioned that, in addition to all the challenges of moving in, Tony is due for a major surgery soon.  I think we're going to get that done in Sacramento so I can have some backup taking care of him in recovery.  We'll be heading up there this week, and I hate to leave!  But every pipe, electrical wire, heater and cooler have had some kind of issue... a steady stream of repairs that we didn't expect.  I have been wondering what the HECK the home inspector did here, because not one thing on his report was accurate.  In other words, I leave the park on notice and run back to take care of something else.  

Even so, this has become home.  I'm really surprised just how much it feels right.  Mornings have been great just getting out and learning how to scramble and build some anchors and very short rappels.  I just wanted to get to that place where I wasn't totally dependent and useless... working on it. :-)   

Greg Oplandwrote:

I saw you over there... I waved, but you didn't see me.  (mighta made that up)    

For July, there's a TON more people in JTNP than a normal year. I guess the Corona has everyone's psyche thrown off, or they're so desperate they just gotta get out. Super long lines at the entrance in July? WTF!?!?!

A full mile yesterday at noon.  SO GLAD I got there at dawn.  

Are we going to pay $10K for an indoor climbing wall?  Trying to get my head around this.  

Does anyone do this kind of carpentry or building around here in Joshua Tree?  Or could a competent builder follow a set of blueprints?   

Paying close attention to rgold's thoughts on this--a climbing wall that I would get tired of in 3 years would be ok with me.  3 weeks/months, not so much.  And at my gym, it took real focus for me to even incline 10% overhang... you are right, I would injure myself if I was on a steep overhang.  Adjustable sounds really good.  

If anyone has built their own, or ordered one, can you please recommend? 

Mark E Dixonwrote:

Rich, I have been meaning to ask what kind of reps and sets you use?

I have a COVID training setup in my basement, but it hasn't allowed a full workout.
When I finally go back to the gym I'll incorporate some leg work and some pressing exercises.
A good time to reconsider my program.

I strongly prefer high weight, low reps, but wonder how sustainable that is long term.

I think the ideal home wall would be a Moon board or a Tension board on an adjustable wall like this

I hesitate to say much, because I keep changing things.  In the last few years I've had injuries and just plain wear and tear that have made me take long layoffs and restart.  But here's what I'm doing currently.

Upper body.  

I've pretty much settled on a session of fifty pullups,  done in sets of five with a four-minute rest in between.  I currently pyramid up from body weight to about and additional 18% of body weight.  In the last ten years I don't think I've ever gotten past 25% of body weight.  If, at the peak of the pyramid, I manage five sets of five with the current heavy weight, I'll add 5 lbs the next time around. Sometimes I'll drop down to sets of 3 with more weight.

I don't have a good place for this as present, but  when I can I like sessions of front-level pulls.  Nowadays I can only do these with one leg stagged.  Lower into the stagged front lever, pause, and pull back to inverted hang, keeping elbows straight the whole time.  Maybe three sets of three.

Dumbell presses.  Something like 3 sets of 12 with a three-minute rest between sets.  I have an adjustable bench and do each set in a different position from nearly erect to nearly prone.

Lower body,  I do some walking lunges with dumbells in the hand and one-legged calf raises but not regularly.  I should get more on top of this.  My main leg work comes from a seven-mile fast-hike-slow-shuffle trail route with some good very sustained uphill at the start.  Usually takes me a bit under three hours.  After many many years of no problems, my knees and ankles are starting to complain and I need to keep the trail sessions well-separated with rests in order to recover.  It isn't clear how much longer I'll be able to do this at all...

Hand training,  I have three genres of hangboard workout, all of them far easier than the things I read about.

1. "Strength" training.  I've got "strength" in quotes because I no longer have strong fingers.  I'm just trying to slow the decline in that department.  Twelve-second hangs from about a one-joint edge (a little bigger than one joint) with four minute rests in between.  I just go until I can't make twelve seconds, and if I get past six such hangs I add a bit of weight ( usually 5 lbs)

2. Endurance training.
  a. Foot-on hangboard motions.  I set a step stool back from the hangboard and, in the overhanging position, move my hands around the holds, including shaking out from buckets.  I'd like to make it to ten minutes with the overhang position I've got but so far am around 7 minutes.
 b, Hang-tens.  This is a modification of a routine we all used long before hangboards.  Tens seconds on, ten seconds off, for as many as possible, with a fairly large hold (just short of two joints).  I do these in an overhang position with a foot on, much more overhanging the the hangboard motions.  If I make it to 20 the overhang gets increased.
 c, Dumbell finger rolls.  I use a 40 dumbell in each hand.  Three sets to failure each time with a 3 minute rest.

3. Flexibility.  I do stretching routines I've done for years.  Not a yoga fan.  Quarantine has, for some reason, made me fall off the stretching wagon.  Gotta get back to that.

As I said, these are spread through the week so that a rarely do two of the exercises in the same seven-day period.  This means most individual days are extremely light compared to what younger people commonly do, but that's what works for me.  I rather doubt there's much hear of value for the 65 and under crowd,

More people than usual are outside here too, trails, camping, greenbelt, the works. Not climbers, just people. Pent up demand from being cooped up. Also no money, too much uncertainty to travel much of anywhere. So there's that to consider.

Boise has just made masks mandatory, with the same list of exceptions as when it was voluntary. My regular climbing partner and I were just discussing this at breakfast. The restaurant was using an empty space next door, with a huge amount of space between tables, and both doors open to the outside. An actual breeze going through!

I don't expect to need a mask outside here, I walk a canal road or sidewalks that usually have almost no one at all. Anything I do out anywhere, I also have the luxury of weekday mornings, if I choose. That will be my go to if I'm at my climbing gym, first thing weekdays. They are pretty empty. My membership was paid long ago, so it doesn't matter financially if I'm there or not, but I suppose seeing an "elderly" climber could help a few day pass people show up? Dunno. It's tough.

Lori? You have all sorts of "bodies" replying on here about climbing fitness. Honestly, anyone who has a lever of any sort in any part of their history has nothing in common with my old lady fitness, lol! I mean, sheesh, "discipline" for me, these days, means the dishes get washed once in awhile.

So, for me?

Step one?

Stand up.

That's it, the crux move. Go do SOMETHING. Anything at all. Just a simple walk, even if that's to buy breakfast or groceries or a coffee from a coffee store. Just pick the place a mile away, and don't let the cat talk you into sitting for hours and doing nothing.

Go back to that book of yours, Lori! Six days a week, do something. Four days, work harder. Two days add in strength. And with your history, and apparent ability to spend a bit of money? Hire a personal trainer. No need to be there every second, just a once a week sorta thing. Teach you what to do with what you have, give you workouts, someone you'll feel guilty letting down. Record this stuff somehow so you can see you've done something. Measure some numbers that can be measured again. 

I'll go back to a trainer, if I can't get my ass back in gear on my own eventually, but I am aiming for the "forever" aspect of this. Right now, my minimum isn't "improvement", it's don't gain weight. I'm doing okay with that, and sometimes, okay is fabulous enough.

Which means, eventually, I DO have to learn the discipline that lets these badass hardbodies on here do a lever....

Because the stakes are way higher for all of us now.

Best, Helen

Haha, it is true that I am coasting on strengths acquired at a younger age and not yet fully extinguished.  Mark asked so I tried to answer.  But perhaps the main point is that I managed to keep active.  I have friends who were just as strong and athletic as I was BITD who are now confined to their sofas and patios.  It doesn't matter so much what you do as it matters that you manage to do something consistently.  That said, climbing makes specific demands on hand strength and endurance, and if you want to maintain or increase that aspect you have to do some kind of very specific training.

rgoldwrote: Haha, it is true that I am coasting on strengths acquired at a younger age and not yet fully extinguished.  Mark asked so I tried to answer.  But perhaps the main point is that I managed to keep active.  I have friends who were just as strong and athletic as I was BITD who are now confined to their sofas and patios.  It doesn't matter so much what you do as it matters that you manage to do something consistently.  That said, climbing makes specific demands on hand strength and endurance, and if you want to maintain or increase that aspect you have to do some kind of very specific training.

Rgold, Can you recommend a hangboard? 

Helen, I’m with you all the way. I used to have a “rule” that I just had to show up at the gym 5 days a week. If I got through the front door and wasn’t feeling it I gave myself permission to turn around and go home.  That happened maybe twice in 7 years.

I am for the first time feeling the pressage of time. Too many possible reasons but it almost doesn’t matter. Time to get back in the saddle.

Phylp thank you for writing what you did (about mixed messages) Perfect. 

rgoldwrote:

I hesitate to say much, because I keep changing things.  In the last few years I've had injuries and just plain wear and tear that have made me take long layoffs and restart.  But here's what I'm doing currently.

Upper body.  

I've pretty much settled on a session of fifty pullups,  done in sets of five with a four-minute rest in between.  I currently pyramid up from body weight to about and additional 18% of body weight.  In the last ten years I don't think I've ever gotten past 25% of body weight.  If, at the peak of the pyramid, I manage five sets of five with the current heavy weight, I'll add 5 lbs the next time around. Sometimes I'll drop down to sets of 3 with more weight.

I don't have a good place for this as present, but  when I can I like sessions of front-level pulls.  Nowadays I can only do these with one leg stagged.  Lower into the stagged front lever, pause, and pull back to inverted hang, keeping elbows straight the whole time.  Maybe three sets of three.

Dumbell presses.  Something like 3 sets of 12 with a three-minute rest between sets.  I have an adjustable bench and do each set in a different position from nearly erect to nearly prone.

Lower body,  I do some walking lunges with dumbells in the hand and one-legged calf raises but not regularly.  I should get more on top of this.  My main leg work comes from a seven-mile fast-hike-slow-shuffle trail route with some good very sustained uphill at the start.  Usually takes me a bit under three hours.  After many many years of no problems, my knees and ankles are starting to complain and I need to keep the trail sessions well-separated with rests in order to recover.  It isn't clear how much longer I'll be able to do this at all...

Hand training,  I have three genres of hangboard workout, all of them far easier than the things I read about.

1. "Strength" training.  I've got "strength" in quotes because I no longer have strong fingers.  I'm just trying to slow the decline in that department.  Twelve-second hangs from about a one-joint edge (a little bigger than one joint) with four minute rests in between.  I just go until I can't make twelve seconds, and if I get past six such hangs I add a bit of weight ( usually 5 lbs)

2. Endurance training.
  a. Foot-on hangboard motions.  I set a step stool back from the hangboard and, in the overhanging position, move my hands around the holds, including shaking out from buckets.  I'd like to make it to ten minutes with the overhang position I've got but so far am around 7 minutes.
 b, Hang-tens.  This is a modification of a routine we all used long before hangboards.  Tens seconds on, ten seconds off, for as many as possible, with a fairly large hold (just short of two joints).  I do these in an overhang position with a foot on, much more overhanging the the hangboard motions.  If I make it to 20 the overhang gets increased.
 c, Dumbell finger rolls.  I use a 40 dumbell in each hand.  Three sets to failure each time with a 3 minute rest.

3. Flexibility.  I do stretching routines I've done for years.  Not a yoga fan.  Quarantine has, for some reason, made me fall off the stretching wagon.  Gotta get back to that.

As I said, these are spread through the week so that a rarely do two of the exercises in the same seven-day period.  This means most individual days are extremely light compared to what younger people commonly do, but that's what works for me.  I rather doubt there's much hear of value for the 65 and under crowd,

Thanks Rich!

For some reason I never seem to be able to keep up a regimen of interval pull-ups.
Always end up doing low rep/weighted pull-ups instead, but I may reconsider.
I'm doing some fingertip pull-ups now, and if I time the rest interval, that could work well.

I usually warm up with a couple of front levers, but haven't tried doing FL pulls.
I also don't have a spot for these now, but think I'll try to add them in when I go back to the gym.

Presses- I don't think I have the patience for sets of 12!
I like the idea of varying angles.
I tried some decline presses this spring and thought they were useful for manteling.

Lower body- have you included hex bar deadlifts, pistol squats or one leg deadlifts in any of your recent programs?

Your hang board workouts are pretty complete- one max hang protocol, one repeaters and one ARC.

Have you tried an Ivanko gripper?
I prefer it to finger rolls, but have hard time using it, since I'm usually either tired from climbing or tired from training!

Starting to think the Bill Ramsey training system might be a little much for me- but unwilling to stop trying to get stronger just yet.

@Helen- the key is to find a workout that you enjoy.
Or finding a way to enjoy the workout you plan to do.
For example, I listen to podcasts while training.
It's the only time I really can listen to them and there are several I find really interesting.
I also like doing weights at the gym, since I can say hello to friends or watch people climbing during rest intervals.
I don't really like running, but once it's a habit, I feel bad if I don't do it.
This kind of negative reinforcement is not as effective, because if you skip a few days, you miss it less and less!
Regardless, will power is never enough.

Edited to add- thanks to everybody for all the advice re:muscle soreness many pages ago.
I am planning to order a (low cost) ​massage gun​​​.
Will post up if it does any good.

Lori, I think I've made it clear that you are more than welcome to climb with me whenever our schedules mesh. We can always find suitable routes for both our abilities. The main quality I look for in a partner is a reliable belay.  The ability to clean a bolted anchor, rig a rappel and rap down is very useful. Having a third person along can sometimes handy - someone leads, you go second, then if you don't get to the top climber #3 can clean and rap.

A home wall should not run you anywhere near $10K. (If it did you could sell memberships) Anyone with basic construction skills could build it for you. The Metolius web site has a lot of good info on building ideas.

I can recommend the Trango hangboard (basic model, not the Forge) The big thing I like about it it it's ability to mount on a French cleat and adjust so that your hands remain at shoulder width no matter which holds you are using. This can help avoid injury. Also, whatever board you end up with, I consider a counterweight set-up invaluable.