Some questions about cams

I’m looking to get a first double rack and I have a few specific questions! I’ve pretty much only used C4s as of yet, but these several other cams look promising. If it helps dial in my personal preferences, from handling in the store, I think the WC friends feel less crisp and snappy then C4. I really loved the action on the Metolius cams. 

• How annoying are WC Friends to re-rack their slings? (likely as a pumped out beginner haha)
• How annoying is it to have no thumb loop on Metolius Master Cams?
• How annoying is Metolius’ different color scheme and lesser range? (requiring more accurate placements)

One of the previous cam threads had a great quote, "You learn to dance with the date you brought"....or something like that

As someone who owns all of those cams, none of those are issues.

• You clip them to your harness like any other cam, they just hang lower. 
• It's different, but I'm used to it. I have big enough hands that sometimes I find myself 'palming' the thumb loops on bd/wc cams, which is the same feeling as the MC - so it was an easy adjustment for me. I do have partners that refuse to use them.
• Again, you get used to it. If I'm looking at where my small gear is racked and I see 2 yellow cams, the front one is probably a .2 BD and the back one is probably a yellow MC. I've started putting biners on them that roughly correspond with their equivalent BD size - but that honestly hasn't made a huge difference.

Yup!  Agree with Chris, I also have C4s, Friends, and Mastercams.  They all stick fine, and all 3 hold up well (compared to more delicate cams like Aliens).

I'll add that in that the range difference between Mastercams and other brands isn't as extreme as it seems, have a look at Camparison and sort by size*.  No question the double axle cams have more range, but you aren't losing much with Mastercams.  They also cost less and weigh less.

*​UL vs C4​​​

Totems.

I have tried many cams, never found a cam I can’t/refuse to place.
Thumb loops have never detoured me, but it’s a nice feature.
If you find some cheap cams try out a few, or borrow some gear or climb with someone with gear and play around.
But always!... bring extra beer if using another’s gear. 

• I can’t speak to WC Friends, as I’ve never used them. My sense is that they are solid, but a little heavy compared to the new gen of C4s. EDIT: I was corrected below. They basically weigh the same.
• I actually prefer the no thumb loop on my ULMCs now. They are easy to place and take up FAR less space on my harness.... but I also don’t aid climb.
• Different colors are not an issue at all.
• Less range: Yes, any single axel cam will have less range than a double axel; however, the ULMCs are bomber in the small sizes (#00-#5). Above that and they get a little floppy.
• I’ve recently started to pickup a few Z4s and really like them. Going to augment my double rack with a set from .3-.75 (I’m not impressed with the micro single stem Z4s). This will be nice to cover the inbetween sizea or for horizontal placements where the ULMCs work but aren’t ideal.
• ULMCs are also affordable (can be bought for $45 at 25% off sales - not including activejunky.com discounts), Metolius has great customer service, and the build quality is really good.

TL;DR: I can’t recommend ULMCs enough in the small sizes, but like all pro, it really comes down to personal preference.

Chris Fedorczakwrote:

• I can’t speak to WC Friends, as I’ve never used them. My sense is that they are solid, but a little heavy compared to the new gen of C4s.

They average out as slightly lighter.
WC friends are really nice, extendable sling is nice for avoiding loading over an edge means you can bring a dog bone instead of a alpine draw, racking isn't an issue.
Get totems. 

1. No issue at all. If it hangs too low just hang it on a shoulder sling.
2. No issue at all.
3. Different color scheme is OK. Just need a bit of time to get used to more than one color scheme. Anyhow color scheme should be considered as very low priority argument when choosing pro. Less range vs more range is an old holy war. For some less range is an advantage. For others less range is a big no-no. For other others it's just a technical characteristic which is neither pro nor con.

My $0.02. Do not overestimate an importance of SLCD choice. Grab a full rack of whatever on a huge sale and learn to place/clean 'em. Modern cams are marvelously good.

I recently got ULMCs on my rack to fill in small sizes not covered by C4s and have not had problems with the arrangement. I learned the metolius color scheme pretty quickly (and in relation to the BDs) and the lack of thumb loops don’t bother at all. I like how streamlined they are. 

i would highly recommend getting the camalots.  i would guess 95% (or higher) use camalots.  nobody is ever going to want to climb on your rack if you show up with a bunch of metolius that are bigger than the orange. absolutely nobody.  they will end up sitting in your garage and then making their way to the MP sales forum, where some unknowing beginner will make the same mistake.  the new wild country are pretty nice, but they have a similar color scheme to the camalots with slightly different sizing.  this could cause a bit of confusion when other folks are climbing on your rack. the new C4's are really, really nice cams.  that's what i would get.

If you're worried about color schemes being different than the BD / WC colors just use the racking biners in the color scheme for that standard. I have all 3 of the cams you've asked about and that's how I rack mine. It also helps when doubling racks with another climber not used to Metolius colors.
Lack of thumb loop is no problem for me but I'm a 5.fun trad guy and don't climb hard. 

slimwrote:  but they have a similar color scheme to the camalots with slightly different sizing.  this could cause a bit of confusion when other folks are climbing on your rack.

They don't have similar, they have exactly the same colors and the range is off by a few mm at most and that's mostly down to black diamond having gaps in their sizing that wildcountry fixed. 

that guy named sebwrote: They average out as slightly lighter.
WC friends are really nice, extendable sling is nice for avoiding loading over an edge means you can bring a dog bone instead of a alpine draw, racking isn't an issue.
Get totems. 

I stand corrected.

Just checked Weigh My Rack: Looks like the new WC Friends are slightly lighter than the new C4s in the smaller sizes and slightly heavier in the larger. Not enough to really make a difference either way.

I firmly believe that you DO NOT want 2 sets of the same cams as your double rack. Metolius cams are IMO the perfect complement to BD Camalots, as they - in most of the range - fit somewhat between the BD sizes.  This matters when your BD choices are a tipped-out #1 or a "my newbie second may not be able to remove this" severely compressed #2.  As others have said, all the brands you mentioned are great units.

It's sometimes a (minor) pain to get the sling back to normal, on the friend, after extension. Just pinch the sling by the thumb loop while its still placed in the rock and pull it out and clip.
The problem I have is trying to clip both strands, or one, while in a funky position.
My vote goes to having a frenkenrack. You get the your favorites in the rack that you love. Also, the difference in sizes let's you really take advantage of any rock. You just have to take the time to see the difference and it'll be second nature. 

slimwrote:nobody is ever going to want to climb on your rack if you show up with a bunch of metolius that are bigger than the orange. absolutely nobody. 

This is a little hyperbolic. I really like ULMCs to black/#5 and commonly climb on the #6 and #7 as well. Lots of climbers here in Oregon use them. Guess it just depends on where you climb.

Once again, it all comes down to personal preference.

I find that the rack with BD, DMM, and Metolius works well when you have the same color of biner on the cams of similar sizes. the actual color of the cam matters less to me because I organize my rack off of the biner colors. If you are looking for a great cam I would check out the DMM dragon. They are my favorite by far. They are the same colors and approximate size of BD's and have extendable slings. Out of my three brands of cams DMM are always the ones I take first and place when I need a bomber placement.

slimwrote: i would highly recommend getting the camalots.

slim wrote:
[Metolius ULMCs] will end up sitting in your garage and then making their way to the MP sales forum, where some unknowing beginner will make the same mistake.

Slim is spot on here in my opinion, but as you've probably deduced, it's totally a matter of personal preference. All three are plenty strong and built extremely well. A couple notes:

a) Extendable slings on WC Friends would be an improvement on BD Camalots, except they loose 2kn of strength when extended; this is why I rack Camalots/X4s and (of course) a single black Totem.

b) Metolius cams are built great and they're customer service is even better than BD, but the lack of a thumb loop really makes them a dealbreaker for me and a lot of people- I always feel like I'm going to drop them. But again- your mileage may vary- tons of people swear by their UL Mastercams. The color scheme doesn't bother me, or anyone I know.

• How annoying are WC Friends to re-rack their slings? (likely as a pumped out beginner haha) - I assume you mean because of the double sling once you extend them.  There is an easier way to extend them, but it requires an alpine or draw with 2 biners.  Grab the end of the double sling with the bar tack and pull.  The sling extend and the racking biner gets pulled to the thumb loop.  when you rerack, you just pull on he racking biner to equalize the loops.
• How annoying is it to have no thumb loop on Metolius Master Cams? - Not an issue at all
• How annoying is Metolius’ different color scheme and lesser range? (requiring more accurate placements) - Color code your biners.  Everything gets racked on BD/WC/DMM cl=olor mathed biners (all three have the same color scheme).  So my Aliens, Mets and anything else gets racked in the size range for the BD cams.  I look down and know if I want a 0.5, I reach for the purple biner, then I rerack it the same way.  Thje racking biner stays with the cam.

Friends/extendable slings have two big but subtle advantages.

1.  Whether you extend them or not, but especially if you do, the sling behaves much differently than a Camalot.  For one thing it is not bartack stitching.  Meaning that it is far floppier due to the material (thin dyneema) and also due to being an open loop sling and not a dog bone.  

2.  IF you and your partner use the correct technique, they're faster to place and clean and re-rack.  
Place.  Unclip the racking biner.  Clip the bartack strand.  Pull. Clip the rope.  No fumbling around for a draw.  
Clean.  Unclip the rope. Pull the short strand.  Clip that.  Clean the cam.  Done.  No need to pull the draw off when you reorganize for the next pitch.

People whining about the extension/retraction being a PITA remind me of all those infomercials for pointless kitchen apparati that involve someone who clearly is too stupid to use basic kitchen implements!

WC Friends are legendary. I love mine. I have double friends from .1-4. They are a really good weight, the extendable slings are great for making anchors with minimal clutter, extending over lips and reducing walking. They really arent bad to re rack. its a super simple design.

Thumb loops are a big thing for me for aid climbing. If that isnt a priority for you then i wouldnt worry too much about thumb loops.