It's not clear if the belayer attempts to give a soft catch since the editing of the video probably doesn't align the scenes of climber and belayer perfectly.
I can clearly see the belayer giving the climber a soft catch, in the same frame.
That video looks like contrived bullshit and incompetent belaying to me. If you fall that far below your gear for only having it at your knee when the fall started - you WILL eventually hit something on the way down - and with a lot of force. It's just a matter of time. It's not rocket science to see this guy in particular would have fully cratered into the ground if he was a body length or more above that draw - hardly even a "long" run-out. This video nicely shows what NOT to do for a "soft catch".
I'm not talking about the fall Philip described specifically, I'm taking issue with your suggestion that falls just above a bolt are often jarring. I don't think they need to be and in my experience usually aren't. I don't agree that there isn't sufficient timing and room to give a soft catch in such situations, or that soft catches are limited to overhanging terrain. However, as I said to Dave, it may be that we have different ideas of what a soft catch is. Perhaps we agree more than we realize. That being said, I just don't think these short falls usually need to be jarring at all, which makes me wonder.
I think we agree more than you realize. Yeah, with 30 feet of rope and direct line of sight the belay COULD HAVE stepped forward or "hopped" or whatever to make it more comfortable. Or they could also not have. And, in the end, the climber was fine which is what matters most. When I said, "often" it's because it depends a lot on the angle of the climb (not jarring at all when you fall 1.5 feet past the bolt on a dead overhang) and, most of all, the amount of rope in the system. The primary source of give in the modern climbing system would be our dynamic ropes with their 30% impact stretch.
My issue with the "all catches should be soft catches" line is that there's not even consensus about what is a soft catch. Is it leaping into the catch? Is it leaning or stepping forward slightly forward and "giving" when it hits? Is it feeding slack or letting your brake hand slip on an ATC? I've heard all of those thrown about as the "true" soft catch.
I appreciate a great dynamic belay. I've had a good soft catch save me from slamming into overhanging rock numerous times while sport climbing. Hooray for that. But if I'm 90 feet above you on a ledgy or juggy multipitch trad climb just CATCH me. I don't want anyone increasing the distance of my fall in that case by leaping or anything else.
I think we agree more than you realize. Yeah, with 30 feet of rope and direct line of sight the belay COULD HAVE stepped forward or "hopped" or whatever to make it more comfortable. Or they could also not have. And, in the end, the climber was fine which is what matters most. When I said, "often" it's because it depends a lot on the angle of the climb (not jarring at all when you fall 1.5 feet past the bolt on a dead overhang) and, most of all, the amount of rope in the system. The primary source of give in the modern climbing system would be our dynamic ropes with their 30% impact stretch.
My issue with the "all catches should be soft catches" line is that there's not even consensus about what is a soft catch. Is it leaping into the catch? Is it leaning or stepping forward slightly forward and "giving" when it hits? Is it feeding slack or letting your brake hand slip on an ATC? I've heard all of those thrown about as the "true" soft catch.
I appreciate a great dynamic belay. I've had a good soft catch save me from slamming into overhanging rock numerous times while sport climbing. Hooray for that. But if I'm 90 feet above you on a ledgy or juggy multipitch trad climb just CATCH me. I don't want anyone increasing the distance of my fall in that case by leaping or anything else.
I think we're mostly talking past each other at this point. Who on this thread is saying "all catches should be soft catches" or suggesting leaping on a juggy/ledgy multipitch? I'm certainly not, and there's a wide spectrum between that and overhanging sport climbs. Though I do agree with your implication that it would be helpful to define our terms--"soft catch"--before we debate these issues. I'm curious exactly what you do on a short fall on a clean vertical wall but I'm not sure I have the energy to keep discussing this!
On an unrelated note, "Yololz Bicarbonate" is one of the more interesting usernames I've seen on here. OP, if you're still reading, I get the "yololz"--clever!--but what's the deal with bicarbonate?
I think we're mostly talking past each other at this point. Who on this thread is saying "all catches should be soft catches" or suggesting leaping on a juggy/ledgy multipitch?
Not you. Artem was essentially saying all catches should be soft catches. He even has the ninja reflexes to "soft catch" someone past a ledge, apparently. I want video of that because if it's true it's RAD.
Not you. Artem was essentially saying all catches should be soft catches.
Since I am bored - yes I agree that all catches should be soft. Of course, if you hit a ledge or something else the catch stops being soft. Hence, a soft catch is meant to prevent you hitting things/ledges/ground hard. See - definition of soft catch is not that hard.
A soft catch on a FF2 fall will be extremely hard to time for a jumping technique. What is possible with a bit more consistency is to stand a foot or two off out from the belay anchor and then allow the fall to pull you in and up. This will increase the distance of the fall by the amount of rope that travels through the anchor.
Who cares about all this fall catching stuff. The most important quality of a belayer is whether they shame you appropriately for grabbing the rope at your tie in point when you fall.
I'm the lighter partner, and granted, I don't lead much, but I do fall lots and lots when I do, lol. We pretty much always climb on my rope, and my partners are usually heavier. Sometimes much heavier. And yet, no one has ever attempted a "soft catch", and no catch I have had has ever been anything I'd object to.
So why is that? Just beginners luck? Or, would my rather stretchy newish rope make a difference? I know it adds a lot to the falls my big guys take if they peel (I keep that in mind, especially close to the start), and they lose a fair amount of ground if they hang to ponder a move very long. So, rope a factor in soft versus hard? I'm not talking static, obviously, just whatever rope you usually climb on.
I think we're mostly talking past each other at this point. Who on this thread is saying "all catches should be soft catches" or suggesting leaping on a juggy/ledgy multipitch? I'm certainly not, and there's a wide spectrum between that and overhanging sport climbs. Though I do agree with your implication that it would be helpful to define our terms--"soft catch"--before we debate these issues. I'm curious exactly what you do on a short fall on a clean vertical wall but I'm not sure I have the energy to keep discussing this!
On an unrelated note, "Yololz Bicarbonate" is one of the more interesting usernames I've seen on here. OP, if you're still reading, I get the "yololz"--clever!--but what's the deal with bicarbonate?
Well, obviously bicarbonate of soda makes bread rise.
Really it’s just a willfully silly name. And sort of an homage to the characters in Thomas Pynchon novels.
I can’t believe my OP generated the number of pages it did.
I don't know what Artem is climbing, but MOST of the time I can't even see/hear the leader where I climb... I climb mostly in the mountains(on trips), routes don't go straight up. My rope is springy enough thank you, and there is always some slack in the system, don't be giving me any more to allow me to hit a ledge. I usually outweigh my partners, and am more concerned about bashing them into unconsciousness in a fall rather than getting the softest possible catch.
Single pitch sport climbing is a different story, soft catch away...I weigh > 200 lbs so I'll be pulling you right off your feet anyway.
Old lady Hwrote: I'll throw something else in here...
I'm the lighter partner, and granted, I don't lead much, but I do fall lots and lots when I do, lol. We pretty much always climb on my rope, and my partners are usually heavier. Sometimes much heavier. And yet, no one has ever attempted a "soft catch", and no catch I have had has ever been anything I'd object to.
So why is that? Just beginners luck? Or, would my rather stretchy newish rope make a difference? I know it adds a lot to the falls my big guys take if they peel (I keep that in mind, especially close to the start), and they lose a fair amount of ground if they hang to ponder a move very long. So, rope a factor in soft versus hard? I'm not talking static, obviously, just whatever rope you usually climb on.
Just curious. By page 7 anything's fair game, eh?
Best, Helen
Helen,
So often times newer ropes have a higher stretch factor which can mimic a 'soft fall'. I, much like yourself, am the lighter partner and when I fall my belayer rarely makes an attempt for a soft fall, and when using my new rope it is still a very nice catch while when using one of the older ropes that has a little less stretch when I fall sometimes it can be less of a good catch. But the rope used most definitely plays a factor in the catch.
Old lady Hwrote: I'll throw something else in here...
I'm the lighter partner, and granted, I don't lead much, but I do fall lots and lots when I do, lol. We pretty much always climb on my rope, and my partners are usually heavier. Sometimes much heavier. And yet, no one has ever attempted a "soft catch", and no catch I have had has ever been anything I'd object to.
So why is that? Just beginners luck? Or, would my rather stretchy newish rope make a difference? I know it adds a lot to the falls my big guys take if they peel (I keep that in mind, especially close to the start), and they lose a fair amount of ground if they hang to ponder a move very long. So, rope a factor in soft versus hard? I'm not talking static, obviously, just whatever rope you usually climb on.
Just curious. By page 7 anything's fair game, eh?
Best, Helen
A climbing partner of mine who is an actual rocket scientist (and who also gives great sport soft catches) once explained to me that if the weight difference between two parties is too much the concept of a "soft catch" doesn't really pencil out because whenever your weight (say 100 lbs) hits the end of the rope against 200 lbs the 100 lb delta on that causes you to just stop, no matter what. And if the larger person happens to hop early and is coming back DOWN, well, then the jolt is even worse. So good thing we solved that problem with ropes that stretch 30%.
One of my primary climbing partners weighs about 60 lbs less than me. She always gives me a soft catch, even if she sits down when I'm falling.
Now I am going to say, OP making a gri gri like you mentioned with a soft catch feature would be extremely difficult because the GriGri cams on the rope to stop it and there has to be so much force involved and then it is either an all or nothing cam. Soft catches are best given by the belayer themselves after they have read the situation and have the experience to know how soft to make the fall (it could be a hard catch or it could be a super soft catch depending on what best fits in the situation). And finally guys, soft catches are something that we can all agree that no one can agree on. I have had soft catches on slabby climbs that have been quite nice, and I have had soft catches on over hangs that have kinda sucked and I wished my belayed would have made it a hard catch. The moral of this story is which is better soft catch or hard catch is based purely on preference. They both have situations that can be dangerous and both have times when one would be better over the other, but lots of the time either one works and as long as you are caught it doesn't really matter how it happened just that you didn't deck and that you didn't get decapitated on an overhanging ledge.
Last thing, throwing personal insults at other people's comments doesn't improve your own point. I personally am a fan of soft catches because I have hurt my back getting a hard catch before in the past, but I can see the merit behind getting a hard catch in certain situations.
A climbing partner of mine who is an actual rocket scientist (and who also gives great sport soft catches) once explained to me that if the weight difference between two parties is too much the concept of a "soft catch" doesn't really pencil out because whenever your weight (say 100 lbs) hits the end of the rope against 200 lbs the 100 lb delta on that causes you to just stop, no matter what. And if the larger person happens to hop early and is coming back DOWN, well, then the jolt is even worse. So good thing we solved that problem with ropes that stretch 30%.
One of my primary climbing partners weighs about 60 lbs less than me. She always gives me a soft catch, even if she sits down when I'm falling.
So if I buy another rope I might want to consider this? Stick with a similar amount of elongation? At the very least, I'd know what to expect. I've had the years long benefit of that physics guy on here patiently explaining stuff to the noob with endless questions...
And suddenly I am thinking of bearbreeder. MP was way more fun on page sevens back then!
Thanks, all! Carry on with your regular programming. Or not. Whatever. ;-)
So if I buy another rope I might want to consider this? Stick with a similar amount of elongation? At the very least, I'd know what to expect. I've had the years long benefit of that physics guy on here patiently explaining stuff to the noob with endless questions...
And suddenly I am thinking of bearbreeder. MP was way more fun on page sevens back then!
Thanks, all! Carry on with your regular programming. Or not. Whatever. ;-)
Best, Helen
I recently switched over to Edelweiss ropes and love mine. It's 60M and has a bi-pattern to it. It has a great stretch amount for soft falls, If you are looking for a new rope I would definitely recommend.
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