Newbie wanting to bring up a second

Ethan Swiggartwrote:

That is the whole point of my question. It looks like the DMM pivot makes lowering pretty simple. It does not appear that I need to rig up slings to flip the ATC. I would still think a prusik on my end would be needed however. 

Just do a weighted LSD lower, I’ll find you a video

EDIT: First learn the LSD (load strand direct) then learn this: youtu.be/g1lspII24QU

Alexander Stathiswrote: You're not going to be belaying from the top on any of the Obed roof climbs. Probably more likely best seat, spawn, or something similar. I'd use a grigri off the anchor to belay that way. 

OP here:

Spawn is exactly the route I had I mind. Did you helped to check the link to the DMM pivot that I attached in my original question?

cassondra lwrote: If you are belaying directly off the anchor with a grigri, or Atc type in guide mode, you do not need to be able to escape the belay, because you are not directly attached to it.

Right, my original question was about lowering a climber should something happen. 

Lowering a climber from above with a plaquette-style device in plaquette mode (aka "something like the Pivot") is always a horror show, and these devices have well-documented catastrophic failure criteria that are difficult to understand and conceptualize. Read this as: "There's a good chance you'll do something minor that immediately turns the device into a pulley and kills your friend."

While it can certainly be done somewhat safely by a person with training, know-how, practice, and a prusik backup, the majority of folks just avoid it in favor of other techniques --- especially because even when you do it "safely," it doesn't end up being particularly smooth at all. I exclusively use a redirected GRIGRI for this application: petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Lower…

Again, it can be done. But since you asked...don't do it

Ethan Swiggartwrote:

Right, my original question was about lowering a climber should something happen. 

Lowering a climber with a grigri in "guide mode" is exactly the same as lowering a climber with a grigri not in guide mode. Alternatively, you belay off your harness with a redirect through the anchor, and save yourself the trouble of it all. 

In thousands of climbs I've lowered a climber to rework a move, or get to a good starting point after a fall, many times. I've never needed to lower a climber to the bottom of a pitch and never needed to escape the belay. Although it's good to have a plan in mind if things go wrong, you should setup your system towards the most likely scenarios.

Guide mode is an advanced use of the device. IMO you should learn and master the normal way to belay from your waist with a redirect before considering guide mode. Lowering in guide mode is more complex and risky. If you feel you must use guide mode, as mentioned use a grigri.

Almost doubling to force on an anchor for top roping (basically what's happening with a redirect to the second) is not a problem. When you lead you if you take a lead fall you could take a high fall factor fall onto a single piece with the almost doubling, and it's within the limits of the system. For a correctly built multipiece anchor with top rope falls, it's a non issue.

Escaping the belay is extremely rare. In most cases as a beginner you are better off calling for a rescue and letting the professionals help, instead of trying to escape the belay and making things worse. As mentioned just lower your partner to the ground.

If your partner is heavier than you place a piece by your feet, with a tether to your belay loop, that holds you down. You will need to learn this skill for belaying a leader that's heavier than you anyway.

Learn and practice the basics before moving on to more advanced techniques.

Alexander Stathiswrote:

Lowering a climber with a grigri in "guide mode" is exactly the same as lowering a climber with a grigri not in guide mode.

No it's not, don't spread this dangerous misinformation. The friction over the lip, which is hard to maintain with the device pointing down, is a key part of the GriGri's function. To get this back, you need a redirect, see here or here. Note how in the second video she's using a carabiner made by Petzl specifically for this purpose. You don't need that carabiner but it's strongly recommended that you use a redirect, and it's mandatory if you're any sort of guide.

David Kwrote:

No it's not, don't spread this dangerous misinformation. The friction over the lip, which is hard to maintain with the device pointing down, is a key part of the GriGri's function. To get this back, you need a redirect, see here or here. Note how in the second video she's using a carabiner made by Petzl specifically for this purpose. You don't need that carabiner but it's strongly recommended that you use a redirect, and it's mandatory if you're any sort of guide.

True. You have much less friction lowering from the top (for a direct belay) than you do lowering from the ground. Redirect is safer and gives better control.

Banshee with a Munter hitch.

Here's a video on belaying from the top with a Grigri:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_f61vUEXTo

As mentioned earlier in this thread, you don't need a fancy and expensive Freino biner. Any properly sized and positioned re-direct is sufficient.

I promise that once you go to Grigri for top belay and multi-pitch, you'll never go back. It gives so much less friction compared to a plate device in guide mode, which means it's waaay less tiring to pull in rope. In terms of pure energy expenditure, the efficiency gained here totally offsets the weight of the device. And that's before even considering the functional benefits of lowering a follower, setting up a haul, belaying a leader with assisted braking, etc.

I used to think the Grigri was only for single pitch sport climbing, but now I've seen the light and I'm a believer. 

Mule hitch added to Munter for hands free, (escape, lunch etc)
Autoblock for backup on lowering with Munter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMtt0K4P5D8

In a scenario with multipitch routes over big roofs, especially if there is any traversing angle to the route, a very useful thing is for the second to have a microascender or prussik and know how to ascend the rope.  You can't alway guarantee that a lower will bring your second back to the lower belay station, esp since they have removed gear between the lower anchor and themselves. They could end up in space or having to pendulum sideways to reach the anchor again.   If you are lowering them to the the ground, yes, you can usually lower them to the ground, but even this is not always guaranteed, routes that start on ledges with ground falling away from one side or the other is one scenario where a lower to the "ground" can still end with the second in a dicey situation.

David Kwrote:

The friction over the lip, which is hard to maintain with the device pointing down, is a key part of the GriGri's function.

 It's not a key part of the GriGri's function. Obviously you should try to have the friction over the lip while using it, but it works just fine without it. It's more tricky to control the lower, certainly, but the cam still engages just fine even on thin ropes. Either way, you're not wrong, it's best to redirect the brake strand over the lip. 

Alexander Stathiswrote:

 It's not a key part of the GriGri's function. Obviously you should try to have the friction over the lip while using it, but it works just fine without it. It's more tricky to control the lower, certainly, but the cam still engages just fine even on thin ropes. Either way, you're not wrong, it's best to redirect the brake strand over the lip. 

The manufacturer's instructions say that a redirect should be used when lowering.

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Lowering-from-a-fixed-anchor-point

johndricowrote: Here's a video on belaying from the top with a Grigri:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_f61vUEXTo

As mentioned earlier in this thread, you don't need a fancy and expensive Freino biner. Any properly sized and positioned re-direct is sufficient.

I promise that once you go to Grigri for top belay and multi-pitch, you'll never go back. It gives so much less friction compared to a plate device in guide mode, which means it's waaay less tiring to pull in rope. In terms of pure energy expenditure, the efficiency gained here totally offsets the weight of the device. And that's before even considering the functional benefits of lowering a follower, setting up a haul, belaying a leader with assisted braking, etc.

I used to think the Grigri was only for single pitch sport climbing, but now I've seen the light and I'm a believer. 

OP here, this looks like the ticket for sure! It just seems so simple that I got a bit concerned... I want to be sure that I have all my bases covered before I try anything like this. For sure it would be on a route both of us know well. I

I live the frieno! I use it when lowering heavier  climbers on top rope. That extra bend in the rope is just enough for a smooth lower. 

Ethan Swiggartwrote:

OP here, this looks like the ticket for sure! It just seems so simple that I got a bit concerned... I want to be sure that I have all my bases covered before I try anything like this. For sure it would be on a route both of us know well. I

I live the frieno! I use it when lowering heavier  climbers on top rope. That extra bend in the rope is just enough for a smooth lower. 

Do you know Audie of the ETCC? He's always out and about in the Obed and loves teaching/helping people including new climbers. Shoot him a message and he might be down to meet up. 

For anyone who feels the need to post basic belaying/rappelling/protection placing questions, where the answers could put someone's life at risk, the easy answer is hire a certified guide. Mountain Project comments can be helpful or less than helpful.The problem is that Newbie OPs are rarely in a position to know the difference.

Send me a message.  I could get out and show you the ropes as they say. I live in the region and could use an excuse to get outside 

HUGE Tradifan wrote:

I concur, but you don't need a guide, you just need someone who can show you in person.

That's true, but when you're new, it can be hard to discern the knowledgeable from those talking out of their asses. I'm sure many of us here have seen someone acting and sounding like an expert when he doesn't actually know jack shit. For a newbie wanted to learn a specific skill, I think a guide is best if it's in the budget. Any legit guide has some certifications showing he knows (or should know) what he's doing.

OP, I typically belay from above with an ATC in guide mode only if there are two followers or I'm pretty damn sure my follower won't need to be lowered. In the latter case, I still prefer a Grigri or other ABD like a Lifeguard or a Birdie. On multi-pitch, I almost always carry both an ATC and a Grigri. The extra weight and space are really not big deals.

The more you use a Grigri, the more you learn what a valuable and versatile tool it is.