Simul Rapping

pfwein Weinbergwrote:

It is true that mistakes in simul-rapping could cause two deaths instead of one.  But can you explain what shortcuts you take with your climbing ropework with the knowledge that your shortcut is a good idea because it's only going to cause one death instead of two? 

The argument is not 1 death vs 2. The argument is safe vs not safe. (And let's just ignore the logical issue with you considering rapping to be a "shortcut" over simul-rapping when simul-rapping is the "shortcut" so even if it was the argument, you're construction doesn't make sense)

But sure let's play. One shortcut I take in my ropework is I don't simulrap. In an example of a safety aspect of simul-rapping I could slip on a wet patch or be attacked by a bird or a myriad of other things and lose control of the brake strand and fall to my death. This shortcut is good only because it will cause one death rather than two. 

But you meant outside of simul-rapping. 

Sure. 

There are times when I'm climbing through a extra chossy area directly above the belay. In these cases I'll have my partner hang out somewhere other than the belay (like down and to the side on a fixed section of rope anchored into the wall or something) and I will rope-solo the pitch. If something comes off and cuts my rope before smashing into the belay, my "shortcut" caused 1 death instead of 2. 

curt86irocwrote:

this sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. How do you moderate something like this? who chooses those "worthy" enough to post a how-to? see where i'm going? 

in reality, these how-to's already exist in the form of books. what we're really talking about here is people being lazy and wanting fast access to information that may or may not be vetted by appropriate people/organizations. MP shouldn't step into this world, it's outside their scope...

Sort of like the MP routes data base vs.  hard copy area guidebooks.  Yet people still flock to MP for beta.

Fail Fallingwrote:

The argument is not 1 death vs 2. The argument is safe vs not safe. (And let's just ignore the logical issue with you considering rapping to be a "shortcut" over simul-rapping when simul-rapping is the "shortcut" so even if it was the argument, you're construction doesn't make sense)

But sure let's play. One shortcut I take in my ropework is I don't simulrap. In an example of a safety aspect of simul-rapping I could slip on a wet patch or be attacked by a bird or a myriad of other things and lose control of the brake strand and fall to my death. This shortcut is good only because it will cause one death rather than two. 

But you meant outside of simul-rapping. 

Sure. 

There are times when I'm climbing through a extra chossy area directly above the belay. In these cases I'll have my partner hang out somewhere other than the belay (like down and to the side on a fixed section of rope anchored into the wall or something) and I will rope-solo the pitch. If something comes off and cuts my rope before smashing into the belay, my "shortcut" caused 1 death instead of 2. 

(And let's just ignore the logical issue with you considering single-rapping to be a "shortcut" over simul-rapping when simul-rapping is the "shortcut." So even if it was the argument, you're construction doesn't make sense)

Seems like we have very different perspectives of what may be dangerous in climbing and what to do about it.  You perceive a myriad of problems that may cause you to lose control of the brake strand, which in turn will cause you to fall to your death.  So, you conclude you shouldn't simul-rap, to at least save one life.  There is a better way to address those problems, one of which is to use a Grigri while simul-rapping.  You can use a Plus if you're worried the bird attack may cause you to crank down on the handle.  I can see how a Grigri would be extra useful in a bird attack--you could lower yourself super fast (basically drop yourself) until away from the bird, then use the Grigri to arrest the fall. You couldn't do that with an ATC and friction knot (I don't think).

And if you're regularly climbing terrain where you have your second hide out while you rope solo a pitch, we're playing different games.  (I would say loose rock is probably one of the greatest risks in my climbing too, but I'm generally not on terrain where your hide and rope solo trick would be used.  But I agree, in theory, that's a good example of changing your behavior to at least try to save one life.)
If the OP would like me to delete any of my posts on this thread, just let me know, no problem, or I have no objection if an admin deletes them.  I'm working on the assumption that this a standard forum post where people can share their thoughts--if people want something else, that's fine.

Mark Hudonwrote: Dave, I agree with you about the connection sling being more a constant reminder of your partner than anything else. 

It's admittedly anecdotal, but I have mixed feelings on the connector sling (mostly against it).  I had always used it for this reason - to keep us together and communicating.  However, being clipped to my partner did almost kill us once.  Ever since, I do not use this method simul rapping.  

We had rapped a pitch together and got to a BIG ledge where the next fixed anchor was a short scramble down (~50 feet).  We were both undoing our GriGris and getting ready to scramble to the next anchor. My partner was a bit faster.  He forgot that we were still clipped together and took off, nearly pulling us both into the abyss in the process.  Luckily I was able to hold onto something and arrest our fall just enough. 

I don't simul rap much anymore, but I will occasionally when rap bolting and cleaning FAs.  That's an entirely different situation though and doesn't apply to most circumstances that people are debating the merits of simul rapping. 

pfwein Weinbergwrote: If the OP would like me to delete any of my posts on this thread, just let me know, no problem, or I have no objection if an admin deletes them.  I'm working on the assumption that this a standard forum post where people can share their thoughts--if people want something else, that's fine.

Why does everyone that says "I'm just sharing my thoughts" respond to other people sharing their own thoughts about said thoughts as "oh, I guess I shouldn't share my thoughts."

Mark - curious if the state / type of rap anchor weighs into your decision to simul rap or not (i.e. bolted station vs tat on a horn vs fixed gear etc)?  Thanks for all the insight here.

I always appreciate your posts, Mark! Thanks for sharing the knowledge!

I think Mark deserves his own forum for sharing his knowledge. I'm proposing we title the forum "Mark Hudon's Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good".

Ostrich Societywrote: I think Mark deserves his own forum for sharing his knowledge. I'm proposing we title the forum "Mark Hudon's Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good".

I support picture books!

Tradi Bland wrote: Mark Hudon's Picture Book School for Apes Who Can't Spray Good Yet - Lesson 1 - Simorappin'

Simorappin' bad.  Don't do.
(But if do)

- Always rap on good anchor (simo or no)
- Use middle mark
- Tie knots (maybe clip to harness)
- Gri Gri
- Don't tether to monkey friend
- Communicate with other monkey using words and pay attention
- Critical think you
- Don't fuck up and die
- Orgy @ Camp 4 l8er

TL;DR pretty simple. Could be one paragraph.  Genuine appreciate discussion, but wut learned from thot experiment???

Pity surviving the simulrapping only to contract covid from the camp 4 orgy afterwards 

Fail Fallingwrote:

Pity surviving the simulrapping only to contract covid from the camp 4 orgy afterwards 

We all have to make tradeoffs in life.

Tradi Bland wrote:- Orgy @ Camp 4 l8er

I’d place a pre order for the picto book. Meet you back at camp?

Pfwien,
Thanks for the comments.
When you say you find simul twice as fast, I'm wondering how? Given one still has to pull the rope and thread it and do various other things like find where the next set of chains is, a doubling seems unlikely.
Might a third increase in speed be more likely?
However, I'm not sure this is best discussed in terms of percentage increases, but rather, absolutes, i.e. Seconds saved per rap. Given this information, people would be able to make the call. If simul is going to save 30min, or 3min, is likely to be very helpful in choosing.
Looks like a good experiment for anyone qualified. 

I don’t understand the need for speed. Lacking something life threatening, what’s the big hurry?

And also, are you guys rapping off 12 pitch routes every day or 3 pitch routes?

A 3 pitch route? Speed? Give me a freakin break!

The vast majority of climbers that I see would profit more by simply improving all of their skills going UP the cliff!

David Coleywrote: Pfwien,
Thanks for the comments.
When you say you find simul twice as fast, I'm wondering how? Given one still has to pull the rope and thread it and do various other things like find where the next set of chains is, a doubling seems unlikely.
Might a third increase in speed be more likely?
However, I'm not sure this is best discussed in terms of percentage increases, but rather, absolutes, i.e. Seconds saved per rap. Given this information, people would be able to make the call. If simul is going to save 30min, or 3min, is likely to be very helpful in choosing.
Looks like a good experiment for anyone qualified. 

David, 

I haven't timed it, and so I could be wrong; upon reflection, I may guess your third increase in speed is more likely, and I agree it would be better if we had some real data and didn't have to guess. The fair comparison would be the same team that is experienced and using best practices in both simul and regular rapping.

Simul-rapping may feel much faster because it eliminates much of the sitting-around-doing-nothing time.   Aside from that, and to repeat some of the comments either made on this thread or on others on simul-rapping--there are a few non-obvious time savings.  The biggest, depending on terrain, is that each climber can work out one strand of the rope below when rapping, when the rope gets caught on flakes or plants.  In some situations (steep raps) this may be zero or minimal savings.  But in EPC, where I've simul-rapped, it seems to happen on most pitches, and the time savings is very significant.  Additionally, it's not just rapping in parallel that saves time, but sort of everything being in parallel, such is clipping into the anchors, and connecting and disconnecting the rappel device.  And there's no time wasted in wondering if your partner is off rappel and yelling back and forth to confirm.  There are two sets of eyes to find the next set of anchors.  It easily allows each person to use a Gri-gri, which feels safer and somewhat faster to me than other devices.  What can I say:  I've done it, there are obvious, significant advantages.  I don't deny there are potential disadvantages.

To address the above post: for me, there is no good reason to simul if just doing a few raps.  Again, EPC is the place where I've done it extensively, including as an example doing Time Wave Zero twice (something like 23 raps each time).  Most of my climbing is in the general vicinity of Boulder, and I basically never simul here (our climbing is nice, but not generally multi-multi-pitch).

I seem to have to say it now every post to avoid getting random criticism (not by the above poster)--I'm not really an advocate for simul-rapping, appreciate that it increases risks in some ways that can't fully be mitigated, and have no problem with anyone who thinks it's a fool's errand and refuses to do it.  It has worked out well for me in EPC, but who knows, maybe I'll reconsider and won't do it again.

Pfwein, thanks for that. I thought your point about one person dealing with each rope a real interesting idea on complex mixed terrain. The whole single fat rope and grigri also I think makes a difference. Over here we would on thin doubles.
In high winds I have used a tandem rap (which is slow) with the person not controlling the descent being in command of uncoiling / unmessing the ropes during the descent.
 

simul-rapping is one of the most dangerous useless practices I see in the wild. You barely gain anything, maybe 30 SECONDS per pitch max but you increase the chances of a fuck-up by 1000%. As Mark said above, if you learn to switchover your belay even 10% faster you would easily gain that time back.

20 years of experience with rapping?

With my partners we have a good dynamic that goes as such:
- One pulls the rope, the other one makes sure it goes through the rings
- Both me and my partner put our ATC/Rap device on the double rope together (one above the other).
- One of us goes first, and goes down in maybe 20 seconds to the next rap rings.
- While the second one goes, the first one already put one of the side of the rope through the rings.
- When the second one arrives, we almost start pulling immediately.

Personally I also always use a Prussik whenever I go first and don't know where the next anchor is.

With this I would think that you don't even save 30 seconds per pitch.