Help me invent a retractable quickdraw?!

It seems like you’re thinking about what may have happened with the Animal World accident, and the risk due to clipping above your head (extra slack and longer fall).  How about this low tech solution, which is a variation on clipping both a long and short draw to the hanger

I only recently learned that the term for hanging really LONG draws to put the clip below a cruxy move is called "festooning." 

I only read the first page so forgive me if I'm repeating.

If the route is too steep, hanging a longer draw doesn't help. It actually puts the draw in a more awkward place to clip.

On a near horizontal route that I bolted with this problem, I initially tried taping the sling against the wall. This worked but required a decent amount of time and A0 to even get into place. Since this was the Crux as well, falling happened with some frequency.

When I bolted it, I figured that since this was around the 10 or 11th clip of a 17 bolt route (120') that I'd be in the clear for a dyno then clip the bolt after sticking it. Due to the near horizontal nature of the route, this actually pit me uncomfortably close to the ground when I missed (most of the time).

I eventually put a new bolt in. Kindof a pita but was necessary to have any chance of sending.

Moral of the story, oftentimes when you find this situation, the route has been poorly bolted and the FA was either too lazy or too strong to fix it.

On a wall this is where you would have a fixed line.

Sport climbing was always called the invisible top rope... now its visable

What you’re asking for is called a Kong panic draw.  You can get one on rei for 40 dollars 

John RBwrote: I want a long draw (say 2m long) where it is prehung on a bolt 2m overhead.  You clip the rope through the biner on the draw, then do something(?) and the draw retracts up to the bolt 2m higher and assume a normal length (10cm or whatever) with normal strength at that length.

The motivation here: some clips are scary/impossible through hard sections on a sport route, and this would allow clipping from a low/good hold and allow you to bust through a crux without stopping.

What might work: although klunky, imagine a microtraxion and a 2m piece of static rope.  The micro is on a bungee and held down by a latch (say, a fifi on a lower bolt). You clip through a biner on the micro, release the bungee and the micro slides 2m up the static rope to create an overhead anchor point.

The above idea is probably too klunky to work in practice, but something better engineered could be used?  You gear specialists out there have any ideas?

what about using a Petzl connect adjust lanyard, hook the metal locking device to the bolt with a carabiner, and a carabiner to the end with the loop to clip the rope to. to shorten the "draw" pull the tail and the rope would go up, allowing you to essentially top rope the crux

not sure about the strength ratings for dynamic load but it could work just fine

and if you are worried about redundancy the dual connect adjust would allow you to have a long sling as back up while still being adjustable

Hari Rau-Murthywrote: What you’re asking for is called a Kong panic draw.  You can get one on rei for 40 dollars 

Explain to me, Mr reading comprehension, how an 18" long stiff quick draw helps a climber from 2m below a bolt then simultaneously retracts at the bolt.

For the Petzl lanyard (or any tie down device, NRS or whatever) I've got several. For aid climbing or positioning while bolting. Also a non climbing version for my hammock and homemade TRX rings.

They all require a significant tug to move. As they get older, fuzzy, and dirty, more significant. Sometimes it takes two hands to straighten out the twists, which is probably going to be super common hanging from a bolt.

The idea is to have something that's easier than just a long sling and quick draw from the same bolt.

It would probably work best as a voice activated unit. Unfortunately, it would probably be the size of an auto belay.

Mark E Dixonwrote: Sometimes you just need to get stronger or pick a different climb.

Or up your risk tolerance

I think this is the correct answer for pragmatists.

For solving the technical problem, I think the microtraxion or petzl adjust rigged to the hanger side of a dogbone with a long tail coming out the slack side of the progress capture system would be the way to give yourself the ability to pull a drawstring and transform the long dogbone lead pro into a short dogbone toprope, midclimb, before committing to “can’t let go for a microsecond to clip, falls would be super dangerous” terrain.

Existing analog/conceptual-mechanistic-exemplar systems:

- windowshades
- haul-from-below systems
- grip hoist rigged skylines

Edit: Ha, so, basically I just described the exact solution described a few posts earlier. It’s kind of a brilliant one, no? But, it still requires installing the gear from above.... so.... stickclip...

Brent Kellywrote: Edit: Ha, so, basically I just described the exact solution described a few posts earlier. It’s kind of a brilliant one, no? But, it still requires installing the gear from above.... so.... stickclip...

Typically you can get up a route bolt-to-bolt long before you can link.  So equipping whatever contraption in advance is typically fine (and like you said, you can just stick clip).

The winner so far is reboot since his system is fairly simple and clearly is fall rated since there are no devices involved.  He just has a rotating clothesline that lets you haul a draw up higher with one hand.

None of these solutions is simple/clean enough to ever be used in practice though.  Likely the only idea that might be used in practice would be the one where we have a separate rope clipped to bolt 6 and use two belayers, or two devices on the same belayer, or one device and we switch ropes (with the climber clipped in to something).  Ondra did this once where he had two ropes attached to himself, he used one rope to traverse at the start of a route, clipped in to a bolt (with a long slack sling), dropped the first rope and continued on the 2nd rope (the belayer had to switch ropes as he waited on a jug).  This was to avoid rope drag.

John RBwrote:

Typically you can get up a route bolt-to-bolt long before you can link.  So equipping whatever contraption in advance is typically fine (and like you said, you can just stick clip).

The winner so far is reboot since his system is fairly simple and clearly is fall rated since there are no devices involved.  He just has a rotating clothesline that lets you haul a draw up higher with one hand.

None of these solutions is simple/clean enough to ever be used in practice though.  Likely the only idea that might be used in practice would be the one where we have a separate rope clipped to bolt 6 and use two belayers, or two devices on the same belayer, or one device and we switch ropes (with the climber clipped in to something).  Ondra did this once where he had two ropes attached to himself, he used one rope to traverse at the start of a route, clipped in to a bolt (with a long slack sling), dropped the first rope and continued on the 2nd rope (the belayer had to switch ropes as he waited on a jug).  This was to avoid rope drag.

OooOOoooh reboot's solution is slick! It does incur the risk of the downward force of the fall being redirected to an upwards force on the lower bolt hanger, and, since you've esentially installed a 1-to-1 pulley for this system (without a progress capture device) isn't the force on Bolt 6 subject to a 2X force multiplier (somebody please check my math here)?

Which ain't great for system safety margins, especially if it was trad pro or soft rock. But it's likely within tolerance for a SS bolt in solid granite or some-such, yeah?

I thought it was easy enough to parse reboot's description of the system, but it'd be sweet to see a video of it uploaded to the web!

The final scenario you describe of having someone effectively "Belay the protection itself into position" reminds me of the Ali Hulk ExtensionSDS, where most folks don't tie in until they've done the opening moves of the cave climbing :D



Say it with me now.... "DAB!!!" :P

Edit: Wow. There's even a mid-route, groundfall-jug-hang-rope-change.... And Magnus, Sasha, and BA all in the same media content... So much radness in a 80mb file. I wasn't prepared for my own blast-from-the-past...

I think you may be overthinking this.  Clip a regular draw and then add whatever length of sling to the top biner of that draw.  This way, there are two clips you can make for each bolt.  (edit to add:  just like Jim's picture a few comments ahead of me) Or do what everyone else does and the FA intended and just run it out.

Mike Womackwrote: I think you may be overthinking this.  Clip a regular draw and then add whatever length of sling to the top biner of that draw.  This way, there are two clips you can make for each bolt.  (edit to add:  just like Jim's picture a few comments ahead of me) 

You're both missing the (questionable) point of the OP: he claims the issue is that the climber cannot take his hands off the hold long enough to make the shorter clip.

Or do what everyone else does and the FA intended and just run it out.

The FA didn't intend to place a bolt and then ignore it and run it out, esp if doing so can mean a ground fall. Hence the suggestion to get stronger/better on routes more within the climber's ability.

If I understand what your wanting correctly, you could use something like an alpine block and tackle setup with PCD... but thats a lot going on.

Maybe a beefy dyneema whoopie sling would work better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SrcBqUhAeQ
Or in technora if you were worried about slippage causing melting.

Just want to add that the guide plate / grigri on the uppper bolt can be backed up with a knot clipped to the lower bolt.  Most likely the device holds and avoids reboot's pulley effect, but if the device fails you end up with reboot's solution.

Fix a taut line on top and the bottom. top rope solo it... no chance of swinging... seems like extreme via feretta!!! Cool! Now we can call it the new age of climbing.

Serge Swrote: ...but if the device fails you end up with reboot's solution.

I dont think a grigri would have much of a chance to fail, if it was turned away from the wall, and setup normally. I'd trust it less as a top rope setup, but for one bolt of climbing, there's little to worry about.

My vote is for the GriGri, with a long rope setup as a ridiculous draw. Pretty genius. If you're going through that trouble, I'd put 2 biners on, opposite and opposed.

John RB-
Evan LovleyMeyers and Senor Aroz have both actually posted links to what are essentially “retractable quick draws” from the construction industry. Have you clicked those links?

If that’s really what you’re looking for, could you not clip one to bolt 6, then extend the lower end down to draw 5. You might need to add a simple hook to it to HOOK it into draw 5, so the biner is free for you to clip the rope into. Then unhook it and let it sail up to its retracted state up by bolt 6. If you fell, it should lock up and hold the fall at that retracted state.  (maybe - let us know...)

Edelrid makes an adjustable "cordelette" that could be used for this purpose.  It's a bit beefy though.

Sean Peterwrote: John RB-
Evan LovleyMeyers and Senor Aroz have both actually posted links to what are essentially “retractable quick draws” from the construction industry. Have you clicked those links?

If that’s really what you’re looking for, could you not clip one to bolt 6, then extend the lower end down to draw 5. You might need to add a simple hook to it to HOOK it into draw 5, so the biner is free for you to clip the rope into. Then unhook it and let it sail up to its retracted state up by bolt 6. If you fell, it should lock up and hold the fall at that retracted state.  (maybe - let us know...)

Yes that is exactly what you could do. I have used these lot at work. They are 5000lb or about 22 kn rated