Why aren’t there bolted rap anchors off prusik?

Hi all. I’m new to the area and just did Prusik for the first time yesterday. The rap route was clear and easy, but I was surprised by the lack of bolted anchors. The tat up there wasn’t totally inspiring, which surprised me on such a popular peak. I should have brought some of my own material to back them up, but it wasn’t a big deal.

I’m not a fan of bolted anchors when natural gear is available on route for anchors, especially for alpine routes. I believe that detracts from the experience. However, I think bolted rap anchors are nice for descents off popular peaks (especially those that draw inexperienced climbers).

With that said, my question is out of curiosity, is there any particular reason that bolted rap anchors haven’t been placed on Prusik?

I think you answered your own question.   For generations climbers have replaced webbing as necessary and done just fine rappelling off natural anchors.  

Because trad purists get a hard on replacing sun bleached tat or just going with what's there and rolling the dice.

Tim Stichwrote: Because trad purists get a hard on replacing sun bleached tat or just going with what's there and rolling the dice.

People would rather leave trash slung on blocks in perpetuity instead of installing a couple stainless bolts. There is also the perception that adding bolted anchors will increase traffic because people view the descent as "easy" or "safe".

Prussik is a pretty common "intro to alpine rock" objective.  I think the descent is the perfect introduction to natural anchors / the sort of faff you have to deal with all over the cascades, since it has massive ledges and pretty bomber features to sling.  Personally I don't see the appeal of hastening the inevitable march towards more fixed gear in the name of convenience. Seeing bolted stations kinda ruins the ambiance of being so far out in the back country.

I totally get the reluctance to add bolts to alpine routes. It seems wrong...But I think rat nests of tat are even worse. People are going to leave stuff behind. I think I'd rather see two small stainless bolts than a lion's mane of nylon.

Bring some of your own good webbing to leave. Bring a knife and take the worst bits of tat with you. Leave what's worthwhile. Problem solved. Your cost in webbing is the ticket price for the adventure. If everyone does this and leaves new plus the best of what is there it is a fine system. Should have some spare webbing in alpine situations anyway, just for your own emergency bails.

Might be regulations in the enchantments about bolts, but also maybe nobody who gets a permit wants to waste it drilling, and doing prussic in a day and adding bolts would also be quite the effort.  I suspect most people capable of doing that wouldn't as they would be good with the tat.

I think a lot of people forget the effort it takes to put bolts in at remote locations.  "Someone shoud fix this"

I mean why is the decent off north early winter spire to solo most of the 5.4?  With the gumby traffic that sees...  Its pretty funny to be "walking off" past a bolt.

In the olden days, we would cut off old tat and date the webbing we were leaving behind.

I agree with Jon,  when it comes to popular alpine climbs, tat is completely ridiculous and should be replaced with bolts.  For example, The BC on S Howser in the Bugs has a beautiful and safe rap route with roughly a dozen bolted rap stations.  Genius! (Also there's plenty of bolted rap stations up at Wash Pass)

Power Drills are prohibited in wilderness areas, and no-one wants to hand drill when there are perfectly fine natural anchors around. The climbing rangers occasionally replace the tat and re-route the rappels. 

Tat > bolts
Many people say save the ta tas, so let's save the tat

Cool, just the normal reasons then. Thanks all.

Michael Twrote: Power Drills are prohibited in wilderness areas, and no-one wants to hand drill when there are perfectly fine natural anchors around. The climbing rangers occasionally replace the tat and re-route the rappels. 

Oh, I know! Hand drilling two raps bolts is just so difficult. I don't even think Petzl makes a hand drill.

the barton accident on forbidden is one that i think of quite a bit in these situations.  i am sure i will get pummeled for this, but i think kurt hicks' bolted rap stations were a good idea for this peak.

Tim Stichwrote:

Oh, I know! Hand drilling two raps bolts is just so difficult. I don't even think Petzl makes a hand drill.

The area in this case runs on a permit lottery for overnights and they are very difficult to get. Also if you get one you are not able to get another that year.

Personally I'm fine with bolted raps on prussic. If the rangers say it's ok then go put in the anchor. If you dont wanna put in tha anchor then I guess you know the reason there is no anchor.

Maybe others dont want the anchors

Alex Bond wrote:

It's also the wilderness management interpretation. Several years ago Kurt Hicks put in some bolts on the rap route on west ridge of Forbidden and rangers chopped it so everyone went back to the tat. rockandice.com/climbing-acc…;

Different land managers interpret wilderness differently - some say that "untrammeled by man" means no bolts, some say bolts are fine. Personally I think the tat nests on Forbidden, Prussik, and other similarly popular descent routes are basically permanent anyways at this point so if there are going to be permanent anchors, they should be safe and discreet pairs of bolts instead of brightly colored slings that animals will chew on and will be visually distasteful from further away. But I'm not a land manager so it's not up to me. I've heard that the recent public lands bill passed in Congress clarifies that climbing is an approved activity in wilderness which adds pressure on land managers to allow bolts there, but I'm not sure if anything is happening with it. 

I like where you are heading with your post. Power drills are never allowed in wilderness areas. The anchors on Forbidden were hand drilled, and the national park decided to remove them. Ultimately, the Wilderness Act determines activities in wilderness areas, but NPS have some say over activities in wilderness areas in a national park. A few groups have worked on updating the interpretation of the Wilderness Act to include more clarity on fixed anchors. It would be great if that was included in the legislation, but I have not dug into the details beyond LWCF funding. 

If I remember correctly, the anchor off the summit of Prusik are bolts. Hand drilled anchors are permissible. In my opinion, this would be fairly low on my list of descents that need updating. That being said, I am not really a purist on this, and I would use the bolts just the same as the random tat.

Gabe Aeschlimanwrote:

If I remember correctly, the anchor off the summit of Prusik are bolts. 

On top is a single bolt, similar to the ones in the top row of the picture (ie, antique). Probably put in on the first ascent, or at least the first few ascents. It backs up a thread that is several inches below the top, meaning you have to do one of those awkward shimmies off the side of the peak before you can weight the whole setup.  It was one of the more memorable parts of the west ridge climb, at least for me.  I could maybe agree that it could use replacement (though it's always sad when historical fixed gear finally gives out and has to be replaced.  The slab on the west ridge has a fixed piton, which adds similar flavor to the experience.)

In the end this argument is the classic "climbing needs to be safer and more accessible to reflect the growth of the sport" vs "keep the wilderness wild and leave the bolts at the crag".  Unfortunately for the "wild" side, there will always be a trend of sanitization and padding.

Then again, I'm not exactly the most experienced cascades climber, so maybe my opinion will change with time and experience.

If you're in the mood to put in some anchors, Snow Creek Wall would benefit from being able to rap with a a single 60m.  As it stands, I think you need two ropes? (Could be wrong)

The best way to distill these kinds of mountaineering work questions is to replace "they" or "them" with "we" or "us."

Why didn't we place a rap anchor?

Why don't we go back and do so?

Forget about them doing something to make your mountain climbing experience feel a slight bit safer or look a little bit more tidy. Do it yourselves?

If you're like a lot of us, the answer will be - I already did that peak. Not my problem.

Next.

This is how it goes in the mountains - it is a self-serve community. 

Eric Roewrote:

In the end this argument is the classic "climbing needs to be safer and more accessible to reflect the growth of the sport" vs "keep the wilderness wild and leave the bolts at the crag".  Unfortunately for the "wild" side, there will always be a trend of sanitization and padding.

How is a bunch of messy cord and webbing wrapped around a solid horn more "wild" or "unsanitized" than 2 bolts?  How is an endless supply of non-biodegradable plastic, which is eaten and digested by wild animals, breaks off and blows in the wind and never goes away, preferable or lower impact than a bit of rock dust and 2 small pieces of metal with a 20+ year lifetime?

Either way, there is going to be an established rap route off this popular peak.  How does the presence of bolted rap anchors make it "more accessible"?  Are there a bunch of climbers who have all the skills to climb Prusik, but are at home because they heard the rap route has slings on it?

If you're in the mood to put in some anchors, Snow Creek Wall would benefit from being able to rap with a a single 60m.  As it stands, I think you need two ropes? (Could be wrong)

Snow Creek Wall has a perfectly reasonable walkoff, why would it need a rap route?

Please feel free to replace existing garbage rap anchors on trade routes in the cascades with modern hardware. Nobody will care, unless you ask them first, so just don't do that. The main reason they aren't already replaced is that it requires hand drilling and it's a long, long way up there. Somebody will eventually get it done. Also, the SCW walk off takes less than 30 minutes. Please do not rig a rap route up there. It will just kill people, inevitably.